Fems and Hermies (changed title from 'feminize your own seeds') - Page 2 - Cannabis Forums Message Boards - Medical Marijuana, Cannabis Club, Dispensary, News

**stinkyattic** · #26 (**permalink**) Dec-05-2007, 05:46

Fact:
The trait that you wish to avoid passing on is the PROPENSITY to herm under only moderately stressful conditions.

I do not like to force-herm because a) I have mother plants coming out my EARS and all the female clones I will ever need and b) I keep several excellent males for breeding purposes.
I would only force-herm in an instance where I was down to a single remaining female of a line and had no other way to preserve her genetic material in case the unthinkable should happen. In this case, photoperiod is my preferred method. I'm a chemist. I run a chem lab, and I fuck around with toxins, carcinogens, mutagens, endocrine disruptors, and plain ol' irritants on the daily; I've got the safety training and equipment to do it safely (fume hoods and ppe), I can dispose of waste according to EPA regulations, and I STILL don't like the idea of even MYSELF fucking around with that junk at mi casa.

As for weakening the line by breeding with herms:
NEVER breed with a natural herm.
IN EMERGENCIES breed with a herm that popped up in a known-stressed garden.
ALWAYS force-herm a few females and preferentially save the seeds from the female that you found most difficult to force into pollen production.

Your goal is to ensure that under even slightly stressful grow conditions your resultant females will not go herm on ya. So your secondary goal in force-herming a plant is to stress-test it into telling you whether it has a strong propensity to herm.

Fact:
You can use photoperiod, high temps (raise the top of the plant right up into the light so it shows acute heat stress), or over-ripeness to naturally force herms. Nanners should show a couple weeks after the expected harvest date.

Opie Yutts · #27 (**permalink**) Dec-05-2007, 18:37

stinky, I so love learning about the things you know. Will it ever end? I mean come on. Mutagens, endocrine disruptors? Get outta here. Man I can imagine how fun it must be to play God. Not sure how God feels about it. Please let me in on that. I want to play too. Although, I think I would be too tempted to play more with endorphin distributors, and selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, tricyclics, and monoamine oxidase inhibitors. Knowing silly ol me, I would probably invent something that would make everybody and their plants happy all the time. It would eventually be like another world. There would be chaos, destruction, and bad things... I'd better not.

ppe = personal protective equipment

Hempious · #28 (**permalink**) Dec-06-2007, 21:20

A fume hood and goggles for a couple of aspirins?

**stinkyattic** · #29 (**permalink**) Dec-07-2007, 06:39

Very funny, ha ha.

I was referring to the other shit people regularly ask after- like silver nitrate- just be safe people.

Oh SNAP, hempious... does the username 'cannab!s' ring a bell? He's on a perma, and now you are too. Size 8 okay?

BOOTED! (Hey, it's 11'F outside and ya can't wear stilettos in the snow, m'kay?)

MasonicChronic · #30 (**permalink**) Jun-18-2008, 11:00

Does Aspirin have any effect on the plant?

If smoked, can trace amounts of aspirin be found in the smoker's urine? (redundant question, but I'm a nerd with specifics)

I still have trouble understanding that a female would produce all female seeds. I know that feminized seeds exist (as they are available at a number of co-ps) yet I just dont buy the science that every seed will come up female.

However, in this case, I think it is great that you found a dependable way to get females! I will definitely take this exercise into consideration. thanks!

**stinkyattic** · #31 (**permalink**) Jun-18-2008, 11:06

Aspirin- I can't remember at the moment if that's a way to make chemical herms, but did you know that steeping willow twigs (yup! where aspirin comes from!) in hot water and then cooling that water will give you a rooting liquid? It is not as strong as commercial chemical rooting hormone, but if you are a pure-organic grower, it is a fine option for a more natural rooting agent.
Do not worry about salicylic acid being taken up and stored in the buds. Not that I would spray aspirin on plants in flower, but it is a very very safe chemical. I am not certain why you would worry about finding it in urine either, since it's perfectly legal, and an ingredient in many painkillers, anti-inflammatories, and blood thinners.

NaughtyDreadz · #32 (**permalink**) Jun-18-2008, 12:53

steeping willows = weeping willows?

**stinkyattic** · #33 (**permalink**) Jun-18-2008, 13:48

Any type of willow.
Steeping= allow to sit in very hot, but not boiling, water for some time to extract the hormones in the young twigs.

bigxjerm · #34 (**permalink**) Jul-08-2008, 23:30

what is the next steep to make sure i get a female crop

the image reaper · #35 (**permalink**) Jul-08-2008, 23:46

maybe dose 'em with Viagra ? ... make 'em tall and proud

**stinkyattic** · #36 (**permalink**) Jul-09-2008, 09:21

If you ordered 'standard' seeds, you will get normal m:f ratios. The next step is to put aside one or two FEMALE plants in a breeding box and subject them to random lighting schedules during weeks 3-5 of flower. You should get seeds, and they will all sprout up female.

a420seeker · #37 (**permalink**) Jul-17-2008, 14:21

Stinky, I value your opinions and I have this ?. I light poisoned one of my plants to make it herm and it did. so the buds that are growing now with white hairs all over the place and I can plainly see the male sacs forming in places. can the buds on my hermed plant still be smoked and are the seeds produced on the same are they femmed or do I need to use the hermed pollen on another female to produce the femmed seeds. I have been growing for many years but I have always culled the herrmies as I also culled the males. Please enlighten me.

**stinkyattic** · #38 (**permalink**) Jul-17-2008, 15:00

Can you smoke a hermi plant? Yes! No problem!
Are the seeds produced ON the hermi plant BY the hermi plant femmed? Yup!
Can you use that pollen on any other plant, and also get femmed seeds? Fo'sho!
Consider yo' bad self enlightened, homeslice.

a420seeker · #39 (**permalink**) Jul-17-2008, 15:05

Thank you very much for such a quick reply and enlightenment

bigxjerm · #40 (**permalink**) Jul-23-2008, 04:40

this would be perfect for auto strains but to try to grow a crop of cush is much

SouthernGuerilla · #41 (**permalink**) Jul-23-2008, 15:05

is it possible to make a hermie outdoors in the wild?

a420seeker · #42 (**permalink**) Jul-23-2008, 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthernGuerilla

is it possible to make a hermie outdoors in the wild?

Hell yes! It's called bagging, I believe the best way to do this is with a large bag placed over the plant, then remove and replace the bag every day at different times,

SouthernGuerilla · #43 (**permalink**) Jul-23-2008, 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by a420seeker

Hell yes! It's called bagging, I believe the best way to do this is with a large bag placed over the plant, then remove and replace the bag every day at different times,

I can do this once the plant(s) have preflowers?

a420seeker · #44 (**permalink**) Jul-23-2008, 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthernGuerilla

I can do this once the plant(s) have preflowers?

Let the buds develope for 4 to 6 weeks and then do it that way most of the energy will be in producing the buds then bag em and it should Hermy for you with still a good bud yield and Feminized seed

PottyBear · #45 (**permalink**) Jul-23-2008, 19:56

I don't know a lot about the specifics for cannabis, but there seems to be some confusion among people about the process of passing along sex characteristics in general. It is simple genetics when you force a plant to hermaphrodize (is that a word?) that will give you female offspring.

First, as stinky said, a natural hermaphrodite should not be reproduced because that is a genetic flaw. The plant's genes have a defect giving it a XXY chromosome. It will potentially pass this along to nearly all of its young (I think the chance would only be 1 in 4 that it might not pass along the genetic defect since it is breeding with itself, and it might be 0% that it will not pass it on, I'd have to look more at the specifics of these plants because it depends on HOW it divides its sex chromosomes). So, if you get a hermaphrodite plant under idea growing conditions, what that plant is is a genetically defective freak and it needs to be prevented from cross-pollinating your other plants, and the seeds would most likely be more hermies. You might be able to pull the male plant parts off regularly to reduce seeding and make worthwhile buds for use, but any seeds should be discarded or you will just get more of the same.

Genetic freaks aside, a female has XX chromosomes and a male has XY chromosomes. When you breed, the odds of getting males to females (genetically) is 50/50:

X1X2+X1Y1

Results in these possible combinations in the offspring (colour coded to clarify) taking half the genetic material each from the mother and the father:

X1X1 X1Y1 X2X1 X2Y1

In other words, 50% male and 50% female. In most species, plant and animal, males are slightly less strong genetically resulting in a slightly lower survival rate (all to do with dominant and recessive genes and a more detailed explanation is beyond the intended purpose of this message). Females being homogametic, in other words having two identical XX chromosomes, have 2 shots at overcoming flaws where their heterogametic (XY) male counterparts have only 1, where faulty genes don't have an exact corresponding "countering" gene on the other half of their sex chromosome pair. When you introduce substances, be they hormones or aspirin or something else, you are effectively weakening the already slightly less robust male genetic material (Y chromosomes) and trying to approach a survival rate of 0% for sperm (in this case in the form of pollen) that carries a Y. Obviously, this could (and probably does in most cases) also kill off weaker sperm with X chromosomes and could ALSO introduce flaws in the genes if harm is done to the female sperm that do survive - especially if extremely strong hormones are used.

When a genetically female plant is forced by a threat to its survival to turn into a hermaphrodite, it is not a true hermaphrodite genetically. It is STILL a female plant. Obviously, the fact that it has the ability to produce sperm under extreme circumstances is also a genetic trait it carries, but this is actually not a bad thing as ultimately this could be a trait that could win out in a survival of the fittest scenario in the wild. The sperm/pollen produced by the plant cannot carry anything but the genetic material of that plant itself. Since the plant is female, it does not have a Y chromosome to pass along to the eggs to produce male plants and in complete isolation the seeds cannot be anything BUT female seeds, as shown below:

X1X2+X1X2

Results in these possible combinations in the offspring (colour coded to clarify) taking each half of the genetic material for each seed from only the mother:

X1X1 X1X2 X2X1 X2X2

There are no Ys to be had to specify male characteristics. However, there IS the trait that the plant will produce pollen and self-fertilize under stress that will be passed along in an absolute MINIMUM of 50% of the seeds, depending on which part of the cannabis DNA carries that trait. In theory, if you had several females that were stressed and produced pollen and they cross fertilized, you could be actually breeding plants with an increased likelyhood of stress hermaphrodism by having this trait carried on both halves of the genetic material which is joined to make a seed. That's really only a problem if you continue to subject your future generations of plants to stress, and the only real problem for the grower is that they are going to get more seeds and less sensimilla flowers.

Ugh... well, I am sure this is a clear as mud now, but I don't know how to simplify it any more. Just remember that sex cells - eggs and sperm - are haploid cells made of half the plant's own genetic material and therefore can only have in them whatever the plant has for DNA. Join the haploid egg and sperm together and you get a diploid cell which hopefully results in a viable offspring carrying half of each parent's DNA. One parent, or asexual reproduction, means that the offspring can only contain the DNA of that single parent (although potentially in slightly different arrangements as shown above).

It is pretty ridiculous for anyone to suggest you are somehow weakening the plants to do any of this, except perhaps if you go overboard on screwing with hormones and actually do genetic damage. Using aspirin or whatever is technically simply culling male-chromosome carrying sperm and realistically means you are ensuring only the strongest sperm survive, which usually is a positive thing. Forcing plants to self-pollinate with stress is simply reproducing a trait which is already there in that plant's offspring. As long as you don't stress the plants that grow from the seeds produced this way, you aren't changing anything other than the rearrangement of the DNA configuration - which is what happens every time a plant reproduces sexually anyway.

Weedhound · #46 (**permalink**) Jul-23-2008, 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by stinkyattic

If you ordered 'standard' seeds, you will get normal m:f ratios. The next step is to put aside one or two FEMALE plants in a breeding box and subject them to random lighting schedules during weeks 3-5 of flower. You should get seeds, and they will all sprout up female.

I've never had a male plant with feminized seeds yet. And I'd be VERY interested to hear from anyone with feminized seeds who DO get a male.

I HAVE had some plants that hermied from my feminized seeds. But I can trace every single time thats happened to light leaks found....and once repaired.....no more hermies since.

I'm with Stinky.....I'd do it with lighting and avoid giving the plant anything I didn't need to. That being said.....heck YEAH I'd do it to keep the genetics in play.

MrBean007 · #47 (**permalink**) Aug-04-2008, 03:00

Great post from all....From a rookie

Rusty Trichome · #48 (**permalink**) Aug-09-2008, 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weedhound

I've never had a male plant with feminized seeds yet. And I'd be VERY interested to hear from anyone with feminized seeds who DO get a male.

I HAVE had some plants that hermied from my feminized seeds. But I can trace every single time thats happened to light leaks found....and once repaired.....no more hermies since.

I'm with Stinky.....I'd do it with lighting and avoid giving the plant anything I didn't need to. That being said.....heck YEAH I'd do it to keep the genetics in play.

To force male flowers on a female, I've used Gibrellic Acid, (

) Aspirin tablets, and light. Different grows, not at the same time.

GA has a tendency to burn leaf tissue when applied foliar, but works (strangely, some people freak-out just hearing the name) Aspirin or light poisoning work pretty good too.
I don't keep a record, but since starting doing it a couple of years ago, no discernable differences in quantity or quality of the resultant pollen, and seeds are somewhat consistent thru all mehtods.
Results: Perhaps 90% female, 10% weird females. Sometimes you'll get a plant that is confused about how many fingers her leaves should have, sometimes it's confused about how long the center finger on her leaves should be, sometimes internodal stretch is exaggerated or diminished...minor stuff like that, that altho looks funky, is still smokable. But no males.

If you got any males, it's from another non-hermied pollen source.

This is why it's likely not a good idea to breed a female from forced hermie stock. (don't breed the feminized plant if at all possible, unless it's an emergency or experiment) The genetics can go astray.

**stinkyattic** · #49 (**permalink**) Aug-11-2008, 11:11

Oh one last thing to add... should you decide to herm with gibberelin, don't smoke that plant. Safety first!

Algag · #50 (**permalink**) Aug-16-2008, 01:27

The only thing im curious about is that the original poster said he force hermed his male plants. Does force herming male plants produce feminized seeds?

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