SUBSTITUTION: tips, tricks and guidelines - Page 2 - Cannabis Forums Message Boards - Medical Marijuana, Cannabis Club, Dispensary, News

bongomania · #26 (**permalink**) Nov-26-2006, 19:48

I was trying to make the point that it is not smart to rely on cheating a drug test (which is a felony in some states) when anyone can learn how to rapidly detox very safely by reading a book Passing Drug Tests. But burnttoast thinks all books are a waste of money becasue the internet is LOADED with information on how to rapidly and healthfully detox the body for a random UA... Oh no wait a minute, there is almost nothing to be found about how to use bentonite, cayenne, milk thistle, burdock root, and many other facts that is HILARIOUS to read! Yo burtntoast your parents are absolute failures at raising decent human beings.

bongomania · #27 (**permalink**) Nov-26-2006, 19:51

I can't find any info on how narangin affects the liver for detoxification. burnt toast says that all needed information is right here on line. Narangin is a chemical found in grapefruit. Come on burntface tell me how it affects the body!!!

Burnt Toast · #28 (**permalink**) Nov-26-2006, 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

you're absolutely correct that a drug test will not determine pregnancy, but they could check the urine with a pregnancy test. and guess what? they can and do do that if they want to.

The law says they can't. The regulations are also available online. See them for yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

And you said don't buy a book because all the information is free? Not all this info is valid. Nor or all the answers someone is looking for here.

What makes you think the book your hawking contains valid information? Can you provide some additional sources which can indepenantly corroborate the info contained in that book as valid? Just because that book was written by a set of people with med credos doesnt make it any more credible. Unless theres independant evidence that can support it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

It amazes me how many people think if they read something online it's absolute truth.

Its amazing to me of the wonderful facts that can be found online. For example, the regulations set by the Dept of Health & Human Services. And the regulations set by the Dept of Transportation. And once again, its free.
Is that wonderful?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

Burnt toast stop acting like you're a genius and know everything because you don't.

Jealousy is such a bad thing.

Instead of jabbing me, you too can be a "genius" by doing your research. As the old salt goes: Knowledge equals power. Arm yourself with the knowledge of how drug testing works, the regulations and protocols that must be followed by all practicing labs, and most importantly your rights as a donor. Yes, donors facing a pre-employment drug test have rights. Donors can be entitled to civil damages if a lab chooses to violate those rights.

Knowledge equals power
Know your rights

And one more time, the info can be found online by making use of your favorite search engine. And its free.

Burnt Toast · #29 (**permalink**) Nov-26-2006, 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

there is almost nothing to be found about how to use bentonite, cayenne, milk thistle, burdock root, and many other facts that is HILARIOUS to read! I can't find any info on how narangin affects the liver for detoxification. burnt toast says that all needed information is right here on line. Narangin is a chemical found in grapefruit. Come on burntface tell me how it affects the body!!!

If you further your research online (instead of flaming which BTW can get you banned), you'll discover that home remedies have no effects on ridding the body of THC.

And discussion of ingestible "remedies" are off-topic for this thread anyway.

bongomania · #30 (**permalink**) Nov-27-2006, 20:26

burntoast says that home remedies have no effect on ridding THC from the body.... ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT. Milk thistle contains silymarin which definitely helps, bentonite is excellent for detoxification, anything with polyphenols will overpower the inhibitors of cannabinol and cannabidiol will certainly help, garlic helps BOTH phases of the body's detoxification system. (hey burnttoast, did you even know the body has two separate phases to detox?) But what do I know, I read books and burnt toast thinks that is no way to get information. I also passed ALL of my random UA's while on parole and I NEVER subsituted or used a fake dick, and I smoked chronic just about every day. I learned how to detox the body naturally and rapidly. I learned from certified dieticians, nutritionists, personal trainers, and a guy who got his PhD magna cum lauda in analytical chemistry, who wrote his thesis paper on drug residues in the body. which all adds up to me knowing nothing because burnt toast says so.

Burnt Toast · #31 (**permalink**) Nov-28-2006, 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

burntoast says that home remedies have no effect on ridding THC from the body.... ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT.

Youre right. That was incorrect - I said "If you further your research online, you'll discover that home remedies have no effects on ridding the body of THC" - in other words, don't take my word for it. See it for yourself thru your research. Big difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

Milk thistle contains silymarin which definitely helps, bentonite is excellent for detoxification, anything with polyphenols will overpower the inhibitors of cannabinol and cannabidiol will certainly help, garlic helps BOTH phases of the body's detoxification system.

Out of respect for the original author of this thread (N2), and for the good of the board, discussions of this nature should happen in another thread pertaining to that matter, as its totally inapplicable to this thread about Substitution

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

I read books and burnt toast thinks that is no way to get information.

And I merely stated "Why spend money on a book about passing drug tests when the information can be found online for free?" Of course this concept frustrates you - it frustrates all pitchpersons regardless of what theyre trying to hawk. To this I say: "Have some cheese to go with the sour grapes (*FFFT*)". Youre statement merely screams that you have no clue as to what I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

I also passed ALL of my random UA's while on parole and I NEVER subsituted or used a fake dick, and I smoked chronic just about every day.

Over the course of nearly two decades, I passed all of my UA's for employment (random, post-accident, RFFD, etc) by using variations of the substitution method. And I smoke EVERY day. Theres no better feeling in the world than showing up at the testing facility with a toasty buzz and grinning from ear to ear while you pour that sub'd sample in the collection cup. And walking out of that testing facility, still buzzed, feeling that you got the system by the gonads - all without any fear of getting caught. Because I am very familar as to how drug tests and testing labs work. Once you gain knowledge of the labs modus operandi, substitution can be a walk in the park - with a toasty buzz of course.

bodine18 · #32 (**permalink**) Nov-30-2006, 12:53

what temp does it need to be?

Burnt Toast · #33 (**permalink**) Dec-01-2006, 16:57

The acceptable temp range is between 90-100 deg for most specimen collections, but check your Chain of Custody form to be sure.

**FakeBoobsRule** · #34 (**permalink**) Dec-16-2006, 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

you're absolutely correct that a drug test will not determine pregnancy, but they could check the urine with a pregnancy test. and guess what? they can and do do that if they want to.

Burnt Toast is right and you are wrong. They cannot legally test a urine sample for pregnancy without consent. If they do you will own your employer. There are so many legal reasons why this has been established, mainly all falling under the blanket of protecting women from discrimination. Many bosses are not happy when they find out their female employees are pregnant. Some are old fashioned and this can be a problem with single mothers. What about if they find out before the woman actually finds out? What if she doesn't keep the baby? What if she was cheating on her husband and got pregnant and say he was away on military duty? Lawyers have protected us from having pregnancy tests run on drug testing samples.

Finally, bongomania you claim to have done all this research on the human body and detox and all this other crap. Your medical knowledge of the human body is quite limited. I shall prove it because you think that if a man submits a pregnant woman's urine for testing and they somehow break several federal laws and do a pregnancy on said sample then he will be busted. Well guess what. If a male submits a pregnant woman's urine and they run a pregnancy test on it, they will think he has prostate cancer and not that he gave a pregnant woman's sample. The same hormones that are elevated during pregnancy are elevated if a male has prostate cancer. Boooyahhhhh!!!!!

flygrl123 · #35 (**permalink**) Jan-25-2007, 11:57

I have to take a drug test tomorrow or Saturday (1/27) and need to know if the guidelines you posted will work. I smoke regularly, took about 2 weeks off and smoked again last week. I am 5'1 and 110 lbs. I tried XXtra Clean product in the past and it worked but can't find any locally in Jacksonville. It's too late to start the aspirins so will the B12 and water alone work?

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamN2pot

SUBSTITUTION: Tips, tricks and guidelines by N2

Invest a few bucks in a human digital thermometer. They are fast and accurate. I cannot over emphasize the importance of PRACTICE, PRACTICE, and PRACTICE!!! If you use condoms, be sure you use NON-lubricated condoms and rinse the condom to remove the powder from it. You can also use a well rinsed, 2 oz shampoo bottle (travel size). Now that you have your digital thermo and condoms/shampoo bottle, start practicing by filling your chosen container with 105 degree water. If using a condom, fold the loaded condom over the tip of the digital thermo to take its temp. If using a plastic bottle, place the tip of the thermometer directly into the water. Place the bottle/condom in your crotch. (Two pair of tighty whity’s holds it in place better and adds extra insulation to maintain the temp) In my experience, I find the water/pee container crotched inside your briefs, cools at a rate of about 1 degree every 2-3 minutes until it stabilizes at about 94-98 degrees. DO NOT plan on using toilet/bathroom water to cool it down. Most testing joints color their toilet water blue to foil using it, and if they hear you turn on the sink water or flush the john before you give them your sample, they may require you to re-submit or fail you. If your sample is to warm when you get it in the cup, simply swish it around in the cup while you blow on it. You can cool it at a rate of about 1 degree every 30 seconds, but don't over do it. PRACTICE! You can't re-warm it at that point. In the reverse, I find I can warm a substitute urine product from my pocket temp of 85-88 to 96-98 in about 20 minutes with body heat by crotching the container. The test cup temp strip is attached to the cup just like they are stuck to the side of a fish aquarium. The temp strip will read from 90-100 (some non-DOT require 94-100) so you can see your pee temp and cool it if necessary before you give it to the collector. One more tip. If you are using a condom, I don't tie the end of the condom. It is too risky in my humble opinion (IMHO) to try to puncture it to get your pee out. I take the condom with my 2+ ounces of pee in it and give it a spin, like you would a bread bag. Then double it over itself and use a wire tie (trash bag/bread bag type tie) with the ends rolled over them selves (to prevent puncture) and twist it tight to close the condom. To empty your condom, simply untwist the wire tie and let the condom untwist. Then place the open end of the condom in the cup and empty it. Check the temp on the side of the cup, and give it to the collector. Once again let me say PRACTICE. Practice carrying it in your crotch, practice emptying it into the cup, etc, just practice.

Men: IMHO the best place/way to crotch and carry the 2oz shampoo bottle/condom is to place it between your scrotum and anus. If you have any question as to where this spot is, stand up with your feet shoulder width apart. Reach down with your hand and cup your testicals. Note where your bird and ring fingers are touching. That is where you want to carry the bottle. It this position I find you can carry on about your activities normally while maintaining a 94-95 degree sample temp. To raise the sample temp to 97-98, simply sit down and cross you legs so that the container is enclosed between your thighs. It about 10-15 minutes the sample will warm to body temp, 97-98.

Women: You can of course carry a substitute sample the same as the men, but post by females write that it is also easy to carry the bottle inside your vaginal cavity, where it will maintain a 98 degree sample temp or you can use two 1oz bottles and place one under each breast, held in place with a well padded bra for added insulation in maintaining the temp.

Please remember that these suggestions are just guidelines and may need to be slightly modified to suit your particular need and comfort. The key to successfully substituting is to PRACTICE.

IanCurtisWishlist · #36 (**permalink**) Mar-10-2007, 19:48

hey,

aren't there like heating pads available? I had the idea of buying substitute urine and then putting it in a condom, stuffing it in my crotch with a heating pad like 30 minutes before the drug test. i basically am giving up on the dilution method because it will never work in my situation. soooo yeah. any ideas?

pkash · #37 (**permalink**) May-07-2007, 10:58

Hey, I have to take tests every week for this ADS bullshit, but anyways. I use a bottle with food colering + water and it works, but the only problem is it makes a little noise when I open the bottle. Is there any kind of bottle that wont make noise when I try and open it, and i can just like dump it in the cup. That would really help!

jfoster · #38 (**permalink**) May-08-2007, 17:24

damn, this dilution guide is awesome. i was smokin for the first time in a week or so and i get a call from my proby to go in the next day. i followed this guide to the t and passed no problem. thanks

longgonetx · #39 (**permalink**) May-09-2007, 01:54

hey guys, im a med tech. yeah im the one who gets to play with pee for a living. fyi whatever company or po or whoever wants to test your urine isn't going to do any other test except the actual drug detection. pregnancy tests, comprehensive urinalysis, urine micro culture etc, are all expensive. real expensive. the whole point of companies drug testing is to cover their collective arses in case something happens at work while one is loaded. they need to show they exhibited due diligence in hiring a responsible employee and they don't want to spend one more penny than is necessary to limit their liability. po's don't have a budget and have no incentive to spend a fortune on extraneous testing. for pot, all these guys want is a marijuana screen test kit that reads negative, that's it. a couple of things that will get you tripped up: 1)as previously noted, have your sample at rm temp. probably the only check on your sample other than the actual test is when the nurse wraps her hand around your sample. if it warm and one is not acting fishy, her job is done. 2)other than that just think normal healthy urine. almost clear to your yellowish colors and no one is the wiser. as med techs we are supposed to smell our urine samples. that step gets skipped a lot for obvious reasons but if you have left your sample in the car all day and it smells like a bacterial culture we might notice and you don't want your sample to be noticed.
if it looks, feels, and smells like urine it must be urine. ok hope this helps

deadhead65 · #40 (**permalink**) May-11-2007, 18:14

I'm hoping someone can help me here. My friend is definitely going to have to sub since no way could he pass a pee test in time. He is getting tested while he has a medical exam. I have read the tips to put the pee in his crotch to keep it warm and all that but I'm just wondering if anyone has ANY idea how the heck he can get away with this when it's also gonna be a medical exam where they'll most likely make him drop trou, hold his balls and have him cough.

Anyone have experience with this? Do they have you pee first, then do the exam 'cause that is the only way I can see him passing this thing.

chantoke · #41 (**permalink**) Jun-04-2007, 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamN2pot

Killer, you ask a question that I still have no scientific answer for. I do know from my own experments that after 8 hours the smell is RANK!, and at 24-48 hours stuff will start to grow on top of the sample. As for an air tight container, all I can say is if you keep meat or mayo at room temp for 8 hours, reguardless of the type container, you risk serious food poisening. I would guess that after 8 hours that the bacteria level in the urine may effect the pH and creatinine levels. So I simply repeate what folk in the urine selling business tell me. But please, feel free to call a few urine vendors yourself, ask them and report back to the board. N2

just to comment on this--both human and synthetic urine are usually sterile when they come out. after about 8 hours though, bacteria can metabolize some of your waste products to create essentially a "fermented" cup.

chantoke · #42 (**permalink**) Jun-04-2007, 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by FakeBoobsRule

The same hormones that are elevated during pregnancy are elevated if a male has prostate cancer. Boooyahhhhh!!!!!

it's not prostate cancer, it's in certain subtypes of testicular cancer--embryonal and choriocarcinoma in particular. but drug techs aren't stupid. they would definitely ask you if you had substituted someone else's urine for your own. and if you deny it, you might have to deal with a doctor wanting to get an mri of your pelvis because of a suspicious lab test.

but bottom line is i agree with longonetx--they wouldn't run the test because it is an extra cost that wasn't ordered (ie your insurance or the hospital wouldn't pay for it). also the company is violating HIPPA rights if they do this and could be sued or even have their testing privileges suspended or revoked.

pkash · #43 (**permalink**) Jun-12-2007, 11:35

I was wondering if there is anything else to use to substitute in because bottles, you have to like un screw it and i get monitered, i want something that I can just like flip off or something, anyone have any good ideas?

**FakeBoobsRule** · #44 (**permalink**) Jun-12-2007, 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by chantoke

just to comment on this--both human and synthetic urine are usually sterile when they come out. after about 8 hours though, bacteria can metabolize some of your waste products to create essentially a "fermented" cup.

Most synthetic urine is good beyond 8 hours. For example, Quick Fix has a shelf life of 18 months and can be heated and cooled repeatedly. It does not require refrigeration or freezing during storage. It will not "ferment." Human urine will start to break down around the 8 hour mark and after several more hours, depending on the urine and conditions, ammonia will form and can be detected. Room temperature storage is one of the advantages of Quick Fix.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chantoke

it's not prostate cancer, it's in certain subtypes of testicular cancer--embryonal and choriocarcinoma in particular.

Ok, now you are just splitting hairs because elevated levels of HCG can be present in pregnancy, prostate, and testicular cancer as well as a couple of other conditions. Bottom line is employers can't test for for HCG during a drug test or any other hormones or even genetic testing because it is illegal. Right off the top of my head I can't think of any point during employment where you can be forced to submit to hormone or genetic testing. I am going to get more into this in a minute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chantoke

but drug techs aren't stupid. they would definitely ask you if you had substituted someone else's urine for your own.

It is not the job of the lab tech to interpret the results, that is what the Medical Review Officer (MRO) is for, who is not a tech but a doctor with a medical degree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chantoke

and if you deny it, you might have to deal with a doctor wanting to get an mri of your pelvis because of a suspicious lab test.

It will never get this far because it is illegal to perform hormone testing during a drug test. Period. Besides, most doctors I know would start with an ultrasound!

Quote:

Originally Posted by chantoke

but bottom line is i agree with longonetx--they wouldn't run the test because it is an extra cost that wasn't ordered (ie your insurance or the hospital wouldn't pay for it). also the company is violating HIPPA rights if they do this and could be sued or even have their testing privileges suspended or revoked.

HIPPA was enacted in 1996 and mainly deals with health care privacy. I am almost 100% certain that the laws that prevent employers from performing hormonal testing on employees is covered by another act and has been on the books much much longer. It isn't just a violation to do such testing, it is against the law. It doesn't have to do with the extra cost either.

It is safe to use either gender urine as long as it is not dilute or dirty.

chantoke · #45 (**permalink**) Jun-13-2007, 17:21

a medical tech would still ask if the urine was your own if you're a guy and it came back with a positive hcg and you were still in the testing area. nurse would if she was the one who got the results. not saying what's supposed to happen, just what happens.

hcg is most frequently associated with the cancers i mentioned. not trying to be right, just telling you what it is. in a guy with hcg in his blood, the doc is gonna be worried about testicular cancer first thing.

i don't know about quick fix's "sterility" after 8 hours. in human urine, the excereted sugars are fermented by bacteria. not a lot unless you're diabetic. not sure what bacteria do with the other products, but if you say so.

HIPPA is current law. that's how lab policy in the united states is currently determined. there may have been earlier less well clearly spelled out precedents, but you have to stick with what's current in law.

**FakeBoobsRule** · #46 (**permalink**) Jun-13-2007, 17:44

Chantoke you really should stop posting incorrect information in the drug testing section. Giving people incorrect info on drug testing could have serious consequences because people's jobs, freedom, or children may be at stake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chantoke

a medical tech would still ask if the urine was your own if you're a guy and it came back with a positive hcg and you were still in the testing area. nurse would if she was the one who got the results. not saying what's supposed to happen, just what happens.

They cannot test for hcg during drug testing period. This would never happen under current laws. Besides, most drug tests that use lab equipment and not instant testing are not performed in the same location where the urine is collected. If you are still in the waiting area 2-5 days later, something is wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chantoke

hcg is most frequently associated with the cancers i mentioned. not trying to be right, just telling you what it is. in a guy with hcg in his blood, the doc is gonna be worried about testicular cancer first thing.

Now why did you go from hcg in urine to hcg in blood??? Why would they have a blood sample if they are testing your urine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by chantoke

i don't know about quick fix's "sterility" after 8 hours. in human urine, the excereted sugars are fermented by bacteria. not a lot unless you're diabetic. not sure what bacteria do with the other products, but if you say so.

You shouldn't have sugar in your urine, if you do then that can be a sign of diabetes. Hundreds of years ago this was how they diagnosed diabetes, if the urine tasted sweet. They test the pH of the urine and if it is high then that may suggest old urine and substitution as well as using additives added directly to the urine such as nitrites. You pretty much have this backwards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by birdgirl73

FakeBoobs hasn't been on in about a month. I know this part of the board relies on his expertise a lot, and I personally miss him a lot, not only because he's smart but also because he's funny and nice.

Until he returns to us, which I hope will be soon, if you're a new member or have new questions about drug testing, it'd be worth your while to spend some time searching through previous questions and the answers FakeBoobsRule has provided in this sub-forum. He's answered nearly every drug-testing-related question there is several times over, and the answers you're looking for are probably here someplace. You'll just have to work for them.

The poor guy may be taking a much-needed vacation from having to repeat himself so often!

chantoke · #47 (**permalink**) Jun-13-2007, 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by FakeBoobsRule

Chantoke you really should stop posting incorrect information in the drug testing section. Giving people incorrect info on drug testing could have serious consequences because people's jobs, freedom, or children may be at stake.

They cannot test for hcg during drug testing period. This would never happen under current laws. Besides, most drug tests that use lab equipment and not instant testing are not performed in the same location where the urine is collected. If you are still in the waiting area 2-5 days later, something is wrong.

Now why did you go from hcg in urine to hcg in blood??? Why would they have a blood sample if they are testing your urine?

You shouldn't have sugar in your urine, if you do then that can be a sign of diabetes. Hundreds of years ago this was how they diagnosed diabetes, if the urine tasted sweet. They test the pH of the urine and if it is high then that may suggest old urine and substitution as well as using additives added directly to the urine such as nitrites. You pretty much have this backwards.

fructose is in urine as well. i won't bother responding to the rest because it's not really very relevant--no one cares.

with all due respect, you're not the only expert here.

chantoke · #48 (**permalink**) Jun-13-2007, 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by chantoke

fructose is in urine as well. i won't bother responding to the rest because it's not really very relevant

i was just thinking about it, that was a pretty lame post to make for me overall. thanks for your expertise man.

i guess i lost site of the practical point there--what i should have said is i don't think if you had those cancers the HCG would show up in your urine. so a doctor wouldn't think cancer regardless. i wasn't thinking straight when i wrote it.

with regards to urine and glucose, i think you might have misread what i wrote. i was just trying to say urine is not sterile after it's been sitting for awhile. just like leaving something sugary out for awhile. if someone is diabetic or just had a sugar rich meal, it can spill into their urine. those samples will not stay sterile.

i'll be careful in the future too in how i phrase what i write. just here to share in the knowledge.

geekedupgirl · #49 (**permalink**) Jun-14-2007, 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by chantoke

i was just thinking about it, that was a pretty lame post to make for me overall. thanks for your expertise man.

i guess i lost site of the practical point there--what i should have said is i don't think if you had those cancers the HCG would show up in your urine. so a doctor wouldn't think cancer regardless. i wasn't thinking straight when i wrote it.

with regards to urine and glucose, i think you might have misread what i wrote. i was just trying to say urine is not sterile after it's been sitting for awhile. just like leaving something sugary out for awhile. if someone is diabetic or just had a sugar rich meal, it can spill into their urine. those samples will not stay sterile.

i'll be careful in the future too in how i phrase what i write. just here to share in the knowledge.

I'm not exactly sure where you got your information but you've referenced fructose and glucose which are both different types of sugars. Fructose are the sugars present in fruits NOT urine. FakeBoobsRule is correct a classic symptom of diabetes is the presence of glucose in the urine.

I'd just like to clarify that when drug testing facilities test urine samples they are checking for nothing but DRUGS. That's it, period. Not DNA, not diabetes, not pregnancy, not hereditary mental illnessess (but reading some of these posts, maybe they should start). Your urine is not special. No lab tech is going to risk their time and the companies money/resources to perform tests that are not only unneccessary but illegal.

chantoke · #50 (**permalink**) Jun-16-2007, 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by geekedupgirl

I'm not exactly sure where you got your information but you've referenced fructose and glucose which are both different types of sugars. Fructose are the sugars present in fruits NOT urine. FakeBoobsRule is correct a classic symptom of diabetes is the presence of glucose in the urine.

I'd just like to clarify that when drug testing facilities test urine samples they are checking for nothing but DRUGS. That's it, period. Not DNA, not diabetes, not pregnancy, not hereditary mental illnessess (but reading some of these posts, maybe they should start). Your urine is not special. No lab tech is going to risk their time and the companies money/resources to perform tests that are not only unneccessary but illegal.

you can definitely have fructose in your urine. it's called fructosuria. both are in your urine in diabetes and with heavy sugar loads. it's a slower digesting sugar than glucose.

here's the article to support that since it seems every starts from a priori of zero here:

[Fructose in the blood and urine in diabetes melli...[Z Gesamte Inn Med. 1973] - PubMed Result

you're right about the second part. i never contested that--if you read my posts, i agreed fully with whoever first made that point. its a violation of HIPAA which is the current legal standard of medical confidentiality in the united states. i made this point a long while ago. actually i think you made it first if my memory's right. but i agreed with you.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode