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Thread: Question about preemployment

  1. #1
    rsad is offline Registered+
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    Question about preemployment

    Hello
    I have to take a preemployment test at Quest labs within a few weeks (as soon as tomorrow) and I definitely would not pass (smoked yesterday, wasn't really sure when i'd be called in). Its for a summer job I've been at for a few years now but now I'm going back earlier. Usually I would just stop for 3 weeks and I'd be clean. Now I either want to dilute or substitute. It's a mandated drug test through the coast guard, which is what makes me question using substitution. It's a split sample because every time I've done it they split it into two vials and send it somewhere. Once I was called in for a dilution when I was completely clean, so it makes me nervous about getting called in for dilution again. So if it's a split specimen, is the substitute (Quickfix batch 4-7-1 p1nnn-13) going to be tested elsewhere that might lead to it getting discovered

    I have an incredibly fast metabolism and I'm pretty skinny (160 5'11) so I plan on using a GNC herbal detox kit this week but it just seems like substitution might be the best way to go right now, is there anyone who knows if the substitute will work? I'm not worried about getting it in there, no one ever watches me and the temperature thing doesn't seem like rocket science, just would like any reassurance

    Thanks!

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  3. #2
    Burnt Toast is offline Moderator
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    In split-sample situations, bottle B gets tested only if bottle A is confirmed positive for a particular drug(s), and that the donor had decided to mount a challenge to the results of bottle A.

    But since synthetic subs contain no drug metabolites to test positive for, you have nothing to worry about.

    Forget the herbal 'detox' potions. By doing a Forum Search with the terms "detox products scam dilution", you'll discover that all "detox" products are a scam to prey upon the uninformed and credulous and taking their hard-earned cash.

  4. #3
    rsad is offline Registered+
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burnt Toast View Post
    In split-sample situations, bottle B gets tested only if bottle A is confirmed positive for a particular drug(s), and that the donor had decided to mount a challenge to the results of bottle A.

    But since synthetic subs contain no drug metabolites to test positive for, you have nothing to worry about.

    Forget the herbal 'detox' potions. By doing a Forum Search with the terms "detox products scam dilution", you'll discover that all "detox" products are a scam to prey upon the uninformed and credulous and taking their hard-earned cash.
    Any idea if the coast guard requires anything different? It's not directly through the coast guard like i said (quest labs does preemployment then their employees come down for randoms) but i wasn't sure if it would go through extra testing for synthetics due to that (the coast guard only requires a 5 panel DOT test)

    thanks for the response!

  5. #4
    IgotQuestions is offline Registered+
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    No. DOT is easy to pass if you are doing synthetic. DOT for one regulated industry is no different than another (FAA to USCG for example). Both use the split specimen and both are tested using the five panel screening. In addition to that, one (or more) validity test is performed (such as specific gravity or creatine). Sub products, such as Quick Fix, account for all those tests and make sure they are not distinguishable than actual urine.

    Only if you failed the screening, which you won't since sub products contain NO drug metabolites to begin with, would it go under the more sensitive GC/MS test to get exact amounts of the single metabolite it tests for. TCH-COOH.

    My point is, DOT is easy to pass if you are doing it with the sub route. Just make sure you practice the temp being 90-100 degrees. I'd also recommend the larger product, because since it is a split sample, 2 oz might not be enough.

  6. #5
    MissSmokinHot is offline Banned
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    i am in same situtaton. Weds the 13th of march i took a non dot 5 panel split urine. I used ultra klean ultra pure. I havent heard anything yet..i mean its only been 2 business days....nothing i can do but wait...but im a mess.

  7. #6
    MissSmokinHot is offline Banned
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    i mean what exactly are they testing for with the urine? they test for the 5 panel of drugs obvi but are they doing additional testing, like for creatine or whatever else?

  8. #7
    MissSmokinHot is offline Banned
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    if i end up getting this job of my dreams, i will be the biggest advocate for synthetics...trust me i wish i could come back and say I GOT IT!! I already got my start date before i took the test so theres no reason for me to call my emplyer and inquire about...so if i dont hear anything its good probably? Im sure they would call me to say um no dont come into work.

  9. #8
    Burnt Toast is offline Moderator
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    My point is, DOT is easy to pass if you are doing it with the sub route. Just make sure you practice the temp being 90-100 degrees. I'd also recommend the larger product, because since it is a split sample, 2 oz might not be enough.
    DOT requires only 45 ml of sample. The sample is then split 30/15. With that being pointed out, 2 oz (60 ml) is enough for the U/A.

    i mean what exactly are they testing for with the urine? they test for the 5 panel of drugs obvi but are they doing additional testing, like for creatine or whatever else?
    Yep, creatinine, pH, specific gravity, excessive nitrites, high chromates, and the presence of pyridine and glutaraldehyde. As long as the synthetic is of a reputable brand, unexpired, and had been kept away from direct sunlight, you have nothing to worry about.
    Last edited by Burnt Toast; Mar-18-2013 at 11:50.

  10. #9
    IgotQuestions is offline Registered+
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burnt Toast View Post
    DOT requires only 45 ml of sample. The sample is then split 30/15. With that being pointed out, 2 oz (60 ml) is enough for the U/A.
    .
    My bad, it always seems like they write the line higher when I've taken DOT tests as opposed to non split tests.

  11. #10
    Burnt Toast is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by IgotQuestions View Post
    My bad, it always seems like they write the line higher when I've taken DOT tests as opposed to non split tests.
    They are not allowed to draw a random line on the collection cup either. That would be in violation of Appendix A to Part 40 of the DOT regs. Under Appendix A, the collection cup must have graduated markings already on the cup clearly noting 45 ml and above.

    Appendix A to Part 40 - DOT Standards for Urine Collection Kits
    The Collection Kit Contents


    1. Collection Container

    a. Single-use container, made of plastic, large enough to easily catch and hold at least 55 mL of urine voided from the body.

    b. Must have graduated volume markings clearly noting levels of 45 mL and above.
    ..And for the "split" bottles...

    Plastic Specimen Bottles

    a. Each bottle must be large enough to hold at least 35 mL; or alternatively, they may be two distinct sizes of specimen bottles provided that the bottle designed to hold the primary specimen holds at least 35 mL of urine and the bottle designed to hold the split specimen holds at least 20 mL.

    b. Must have screw-on or snap-on caps that prevent seepage of the urine from the bottles during shipment.

    c. Must have markings clearly indicating the appropriate levels (30 mL for the primary specimen and 15 mL for the split) of urine that must be poured into the bottles

    Source: DOT Rule 49 CFR Part 40 Appendix A | Department of Transportation
    The actual regulation covering the required volume of sample:

    Subpart E - Urine Specimen Collections
    40.65 What does the collector check for when the employee presents a specimen?

    As a collector, you must check the following when the employee gives the collection container to you:

    (a) Sufficiency of specimen. You must check to ensure that the specimen contains at least 45 mL of urine.

    (1) If it does not, you must follow “shy bladder” procedures (see 40.193(b)).

    (2) When you follow “shy bladder” procedures, you must discard the original specimen, unless another problem (i.e., temperature out of range, signs of tampering) also exists.

    (3) You are never permitted to combine urine collected from separate voids to create a specimen.

    (4) You must discard any excess urine.

    Source: DOT Rule 49 CFR Part 40 Section 40.65 | Department of Transportation
    Last edited by Burnt Toast; Mar-18-2013 at 19:26.

  12. #11
    IgotQuestions is offline Registered+
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    I've never looked at the bottle inventively, just said by observation that it seems different. I still recommend the larger QF bottle though. You don't HAVE to get it... but it's nice having it.

  13. #12
    rsad is offline Registered+
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    Followed N2's dilution to the tee to self test myself before the actual test... didn't even get a blurry line, fuck. Now I'm definitely stuck using subs.. and if this doesn't work, I have no job for the summer...

    Will keep posted

  14. #13
    IgotQuestions is offline Registered+
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    Just practice getting the temp right. If you can do that, you will be goooooolden!

  15. #14
    rsad is offline Registered+
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    It's actually a very very very faint line, so it seems like i need to wait longer then 2 days if i want to dilute

    What happens if the lab catches a sub?

  16. #15
    IgotQuestions is offline Registered+
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    A lab isn't going to catch a substitution. If it is unexpired and is kept out of direct sunlight, there is no way for them to tell the difference. It will be drug free and contain the properties of actual urine - creatine, specific gravity, ph, etcetc.

  17. #16
    rsad is offline Registered+
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    Quote Originally Posted by IgotQuestions View Post
    A lab isn't going to catch a substitution. If it is unexpired and is kept out of direct sunlight, there is no way for them to tell the difference. It will be drug free and contain the properties of actual urine - creatine, specific gravity, ph, etcetc.
    I guess there is only one way for me to find out lol.

  18. #17
    Burnt Toast is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsad View Post

    What happens if the lab catches a sub?
    If you are at the collection site, and the collector catches you with any "cheating contraband", then you will be submitting a urine sample under direct observation. If you refuse to submit under direct observation, it will be declared as a "refusal to test".

    But as long as you play your cards right and not do something ludicrous like keeping your sub container in your shirt pocket, etc; then you have nothing to worry about.

  19. #18
    rsad is offline Registered+
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burnt Toast View Post
    If you are at the collection site, and the collector catches you with any "cheating contraband", then you will be submitting a urine sample under direct observation. If you refuse to submit under direct observation, it will be declared as a "refusal to test".

    But as long as you play your cards right and not do something ludicrous like keeping your sub container in your shirt pocket, etc; then you have nothing to worry about.
    thanks, your posts have been very reassuring

    will keep updated

  20. #19
    rsad is offline Registered+
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    the test is 45304N DOT Drug panel w/ TS will synthetic work

  21. #20
    Burnt Toast is offline Moderator
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    An unexpired synthetic batch that had been stored properly (kept away from direct sunlight) will work on all DOT regulated tests.

  22. #21
    rsad is offline Registered+
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    thank you so much for your quick response

    i was just unaware of what w/ts meant, do you happen to know out of curiousity
    Last edited by rsad; Mar-22-2013 at 12:42.

  23. #22
    rsad is offline Registered+
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    I'm guessing it means with test and screen (so initial + GC/MS)... meaning im probably going to fail
    Last edited by rsad; Mar-22-2013 at 14:49.

  24. #23
    Burnt Toast is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsad View Post
    I'm guessing it means with test and screen (so initial + GC/MS)... meaning im probably going to fail
    What makes you think youre going to fail, if youre planning not to use any of your own urine?

  25. #24
    rsad is offline Registered+
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burnt Toast View Post
    What makes you think youre going to fail, if youre planning not to use any of your own urine?
    I was under the impression that the screen wouldn't detect synthetic, but the GC/MC could

    Do they ONLY run the GC/MC if there's a positive result? Like I said, I still don't know what the "w/ts" meant so I thought it might be possible they do both the screen and the test

  26. #25
    Burnt Toast is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsad View Post
    I was under the impression that the screen wouldn't detect synthetic, but the GC/MC could

    Do they ONLY run the GC/MC if there's a positive result? Like I said, I still don't know what the "w/ts" meant so I thought it might be possible they do both the screen and the test
    Ive already explained to you in post #20 that an unexpired synthetic batch thats been stored properly will work on DOT-regulated tests. So that essentially answers your question about "w/ts".
    DOT can only test for drug metabolites, plus creatinine, pH, S/G, excessive nitrites, and the presence of Pyridine and Glutaraldehyde.

    The GC/MS is only used to detect drug metabolites (confirmation only) and the presence of Pyridine and Glutaraldehyde. It is NOT used to detect 'non-human' samples. An entirely different testing methodology is used for this purpose.

    If a urine sample tests negative on the initial I/A screen, the test is over right then as a "pass" - no confirmation GC/MS performed.
    Last edited by Burnt Toast; Mar-24-2013 at 09:13.

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