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Jan-24-2008, 18:34
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Seedlings 10 days old- a log
Hi guys, I am a new member here, since a few weeks ago, I have read many of the articles and FAQ's and I apologise if this is covered somewhere else on the forum (I have looked, honest ;-)
Having some BIG PROBLEMS - with my seedlings, they've just turned 10 days old. They germinated in 24 hours thanks to much great love from me! They have recently been transplated because they seemed to be unhappy under a 400 Watt HPS grolux lamp.. I have been extremely careful and have a careful 26Celsius AC ensuring they don't burn.
They have only been under the HPS about 5 days of the whole 10 they've been growing, and after the first 2 days the leaves got so big (or heavy) that it seemed to make the whole few leaves (tops) of the lil plants bend over to the soil floor.
I've read in a lot of posts that giving them too much water causes root rott etc, but I am finding I am watering them almost several times a day because the HPS really do tend to try them out. (maybe i should have went hydroponic  ).
My question is:
should i be watering these 10 day old seedlings several times a day now they are through the germinating process, I keep on being told by friends I should water them more often! Is this true? Or are they spindley because I am overwatering them.
Since there is no leaf damage and they look dead healthy other than the fact they've flopped (stem) down the soil almost..
I'm assuming that i've not done any root damage!
One other thing. Should I be worried about putting these 10 day old lil things under HPS 24 hours?
Any help would be appreciated! Thanks :-)
Last edited by denial102; Jan-24-2008 at 18:38.
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Jan-24-2008, 19:19
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dont listen to your friends. you should be watering only when the soil is semi dry, about once every 3-4 days.
the hps is fine, just dont get it too close at such an early stage
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Jan-24-2008, 20:55
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What size pot did you transplant into? If it's just an 6-8" (or smaller) pot, you can expect the HPS to dry out the soil out quicker. The sprouts are taking in as much water as they can, and generally the heat makes a difference. Even with an AC unit helping to control the climate in the room, if it's not making the small distance from the light to the seedlings the same ambient temperature, even a slight elevation in heat will cause more evaporation.
If you're using a lot of perlite or vermiculite, or a good deal of any other aerating agent, you'll end up watering more frequently. If this is the case, some peat moss - or a similar moisture retaining substance - should be added the next time you transplant...but you should be careful how much transplanting you do. It's easy to shock the roots by doing it too much. I transplant twice; from 4" germination pots to 10" pots, and then later to a 5 gallon bucket when I know what's going to be staying.
One last thing, make sure the light isn't too close to the tops of the plants by using the back of your hand. You're going to want to get that HPS as close to the plants as possible to reduce stretching. Seedlings can stretch easily, which will generally lead to them falling over. When this happens, I like to make temporary stakes using about six inches of a clothes hanger and bending a horizontal "U" shape on one end. Helps you from having to tie any thread or string around the expanding stem.
Good luck with your grow! 
__________________
"In order to become "old & wise", you must first be young & stupid." -?
"Switch to 24/0 light schedule and don't worry... about a thing... every little thing... gonna be all right." -StinkyAttic
"It can be a fine balance between 'ok...I need to water later today' and 'shit...I should have watered yesterday.'" -Rusty Trichome
"I know it was just a typo, but you wrote "Marital Arts," instead of "Martial Arts," and that makes for a very hilarious paragraph!" -Dragonrider
Last edited by Mr. Clandestine; Jan-24-2008 at 21:04.
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Jan-24-2008, 23:42
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thanks guys and here is a picture!
Quote:
Originally Posted by keeko
dont listen to your friends. you should be watering only when the soil is semi dry, about once every 3-4 days.
the hps is fine, just dont get it too close at such an early stage
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Thanks for the advice keeko, I agree pretty much every few days for most seedlings, this issue really is dependant on the pot size, so I apologise for not saying.. pictures below
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Clandestine
What size pot did you transplant into? If it's just an 6-8" (or smaller) pot, you can expect the HPS to dry out the soil out quicker. The sprouts are taking in as much water as they can, and generally the heat makes a difference. Even with an AC unit helping to control the climate in the room, if it's not making the small distance from the light to the seedlings the same ambient temperature, even a slight elevation in heat will cause more evaporation.
If you're using a lot of perlite or vermiculite, or a good deal of any other aerating agent, you'll end up watering more frequently. If this is the case, some peat moss - or a similar moisture retaining substance - should be added the next time you transplant...but you should be careful how much transplanting you do. It's easy to shock the roots by doing it too much. I transplant twice; from 4" germination pots to 10" pots, and then later to a 5 gallon bucket when I know what's going to be staying.
One last thing, make sure the light isn't too close to the tops of the plants by using the back of your hand. You're going to want to get that HPS as close to the plants as possible to reduce stretching. Seedlings can stretch easily, which will generally lead to them falling over. When this happens, I like to make temporary stakes using about six inches of a clothes hanger and bending a horizontal "U" shape on one end. Helps you from having to tie any thread or string around the expanding stem.
Good luck with your grow! |
I am not sure of the exact pot size, but I know its quite big! 
Truth be told these were germinated in tissue and then as they popped (~12hours) they were placed in the biobizz all which is a wee bit strong for them I admit, but they seem to have done okay. As you can see they are a bit spindley and they were transplanted from very small cutting pots into this big mammoth, I may keep all 3 in the 1 pot and make it `mother` or later transplant (so thats 2 transplants altogether, if I don't make these mothers' right?) :-)
BTW: Currently in limited space at the moment, as I am still in process of making the grow environment (box or w/e). Thats why they are all in one pot!!
AS you can see from the picture it does look like one of them has been overwatered a bit? Either that or I damaged it slightly planting it. Yesterday I added the straws and (carefully) added wire to hold them lightly in place.. guessing its a case of overwatering , roots, shock to the system, or the HPS light being a bit warm (re one is drooping a bit).
I actually moved the HPS upwards a bit so now it's over 18 inches away (approx 2-2.5 feet now) do you think thats a bit too far away?
Thanks for the advice and good wishes! This is still work in progress so lets see where it goes man!
Thanks,
Denial
Last edited by denial102; Jan-24-2008 at 23:45.
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Jan-25-2008, 01:30
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Denial,
I use a mix that's pretty similar to the Biobizz organic soil. Though I prefer to add a little more perlite to the mix when I'm starting seedlings, and I much prefer to keep the seedlings in individual pots. The roots are eventually going to be competing for space, and I'm not sure how that will affect them. And since you also just transplanted, I don't know how bad another transplant is going to shock your roots. If they were mine, I'd still get them back into a smaller pot and leave them there for a while longer. I'd expect the worst, but hope for the best. It'll be really easy to stunt their growth if handled roughly. Also, if you decide to leave them in the same pot, they only need enough water to saturate the soil surrounding the stem for a little while. You don't want to keep the whole pot saturated, your roots probably aren't even close to the bottom of the pot yet.
As for your stretching, it's most likely happening because of your light. You've got me a little confused about the distance of your light, though. You said approximately 18 inches, or 2-2.5 feet...but 18 inches is 1.5 feet!
If it's two feet or so from the seedlings, they're stretching to try and receive more light. The light needs to be as close as possible without burning or causing heat stress to them. This balance can be hard to find, and is why I prefer to start seedlings out under CFL light. It's much easier to regulate the ambient temperature of the room this way, and I can get the lights damn near on top of the leaves, keeping stretching to a minimum. I like to let them grow a few sets of leaves before I put them under the HID and fans.
Good luck again, and let us know how things work out for you!
__________________
"In order to become "old & wise", you must first be young & stupid." -?
"Switch to 24/0 light schedule and don't worry... about a thing... every little thing... gonna be all right." -StinkyAttic
"It can be a fine balance between 'ok...I need to water later today' and 'shit...I should have watered yesterday.'" -Rusty Trichome
"I know it was just a typo, but you wrote "Marital Arts," instead of "Martial Arts," and that makes for a very hilarious paragraph!" -Dragonrider
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Jan-25-2008, 11:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Clandestine
Denial,
I use a mix that's pretty similar to the Biobizz organic soil. Though I prefer to add a little more perlite to the mix when I'm starting seedlings, and I much prefer to keep the seedlings in individual pots. The roots are eventually going to be competing for space, and I'm not sure how that will affect them. And since you also just transplanted, I don't know how bad another transplant is going to shock your roots. If they were mine, I'd still get them back into a smaller pot and leave them there for a while longer. I'd expect the worst, but hope for the best. It'll be really easy to stunt their growth if handled roughly. Also, if you decide to leave them in the same pot, they only need enough water to saturate the soil surrounding the stem for a little while. You don't want to keep the whole pot saturated, your roots probably aren't even close to the bottom of the pot yet.
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Heh, I was going to leave them in this large pot for a few weeks (was desperate and had no other pots to hand).. I was also thinking of transplanting them a total of 3 times.. seemed like a bad idea though. Hmm... growing really can be a complex thing hehe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Clandestine
Denial,
As for your stretching, it's most likely happening because of your light. You've got me a little confused about the distance of your light, though. You said approximately 18 inches, or 2-2.5 feet...but 18 inches is 1.5 feet! |
Yeah, sorry I actually meant to say I have had it initially at 18 inches, but because I was worried it was heat shocking the plants a bit I moved it up to above 2feet 16 hours ago! They were previously at 18 inches which is of course 1.5 feet which as far as I was concerned (after reading posts here) was considered OK. Still, not sure about that the distance. I actually moved the lamp back down now because I'm convinced it wasn't heat stress making them droop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Clandestine
Denial,
If it's two feet or so from the seedlings, they're stretching to try and receive more light. The light needs to be as close as possible without burning or causing heat stress to them. This balance can be hard to find, and is why I prefer to start seedlings out under CFL light. It's much easier to regulate the ambient temperature of the room this way, and I can get the lights damn near on top of the leaves, keeping stretching to a minimum. I like to let them grow a few sets of leaves before I put them under the HID and fans.
Good luck again, and let us know how things work out for you!
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OK well we're at about 18 inches again with adequate cooling, it will be interesting to see how they go, i'll post a pic at some point.
I did indeed though not start with the ideal set of circumstances ;-) Thanks for the advice I really do appreciate it, thanks for the goodluck - I will let you know!
Denial
Last edited by denial102; Jan-25-2008 at 11:14.
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Jan-25-2008, 11:23
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Red-spectrum lighting encourages stretch and isn't ideal for seedlings. Personally I prefer blue-spectrum flouros for seedlings because of the better light color and the simple fact that it's harder to overheat them.
Only one plant per pot next time.
And you can add soil to those seedlings RIGHT up to the cotyledons. The stem below the first node is capable of growing roots if given soil to root into.
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Jan-25-2008, 12:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkyattic
Red-spectrum lighting encourages stretch and isn't ideal for seedlings. Personally I prefer blue-spectrum flouros for seedlings because of the better light color and the simple fact that it's harder to overheat them.
Only one plant per pot next time.
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Thanks for the advice stinky much appreciated. I thought the grolux offered enough of both for both vegetation and flowering, but I guess seedlings react a bit different than in the stages of veg and flowering? well, that was the reason why I went with the grolux, quickly finding everyone has an opinion, I've read a lot of your posts stinky, so I owe you a debt of thanks already!
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkyattic
And you can add soil to those seedlings RIGHT up to the cotyledons. The stem below the first node is capable of growing roots if given soil to root into.
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Someone (sigh ) told me that if I put the soil over too much of the stem it'd rott, is that BS?) - *goes to google cotyledons*
Update: have been reading No Those Are Not Baby Plant Wings: Cotyledon Leaves it was quite helpful for anyone else that might want to benefit from it!
Thanks again ;-)
Denial
Last edited by denial102; Jan-25-2008 at 12:21.
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Jan-25-2008, 12:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denial102
Someone (sigh ) told me that if I put the soil over too much of the stem it'd rott, is that BS?) l |
Nope. The cotyledons are the first little round seed leaves that come out. The entire stem below them can functionally be considered almost an extension of the taproot, and is as happy underground as above it. If you put soil over a part of the stem ABOVE the seed-leaves, which is designed to be only ABOVE ground, then you can indeed get rot.
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Jan-25-2008, 14:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkyattic
Nope. The cotyledons are the first little round seed leaves that come out. The entire stem below them can functionally be considered almost an extension of the taproot, and is as happy underground as above it. If you put soil over a part of the stem ABOVE the seed-leaves, which is designed to be only ABOVE ground, then you can indeed get rot.
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Thanks for clearing that up chap, I will enjoy telling my knowitall friend he was mistaken ;-)
Will keep you guys informed as to the progress!
Peace,
Denial
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Jan-25-2008, 14:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denial102
Thanks for clearing that up chap, I will enjoy telling my knowitall friend he was mistaken ;-)
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He's only mistaken halfway. Soil above any node=stem rots. Soil below first node= stem grows roots.
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Jan-25-2008, 15:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkyattic
He's only mistaken halfway. Soil above any node=stem rots. Soil below first node= stem grows roots.
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good point, he was there when i was transplanting them and he was saying how not to put them up to the first leaves because it'd rott! It upsets me a tidbit since thats not the case as if I had buried the stems a bit more we wouldn't have to tie them, and i'd imagine, the plant'd be a bit stronger.
Nevermind ;-)
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Jan-26-2008, 20:39
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some pics @ 13 days 
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Jan-26-2008, 23:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denial102
Thanks for clearing that up chap,
Peace,
Denial
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Just an FYI - that would be chapette, or chapess - Stinky is a girl. 
PC 
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Jan-27-2008, 02:14
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How much water should you give plants?
I know people that use a couple bottleed water capfuls every day, thats it.
When you start to veg a plant, how do you know how much water to use? Do you water it till water starts to leak out into the plate or what?
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Jan-27-2008, 02:28
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that should say a couple capfuls for seedlings
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Jan-27-2008, 09:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkyattic
Only one plant per pot next time.
And you can add soil to those seedlings RIGHT up to the cotyledons. The stem below the first node is capable of growing roots if given soil to root into.
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I do it almost every grow. I don't know if it's necessary or helpful, but I spray the stem with water, then 'tap' some rooting hormone onto it before burying. Can CAREFULLY transplant each individual plant deeper into it's own pot, too. Also...got a fan on them? It'll make the plant strengthen it's stem, to stand-up against the breeze.
Looks like this:
. . . . . . . . . . . Before. . . . . . . . . . . . After
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