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syde00 · #1 (**permalink**) Apr-25-2009, 20:10

So, i orignally started this grow log over here: First grow in Cab with CFLs - Cali Orange

but i realized it was in the wrong place and the mod i asked to move it never answered

so i just thought i'd start a new thread here and link back to the old one.

today the 4 of them are on day 10 and things are going pretty good except a couple minor things... probably do a pic update tomorrow!

BeFree · #2 (**permalink**) Apr-25-2009, 21:26

Looking pretty good. Got any kind of fan circulating air, or are you just moving air through atm? careful on the CFL's, you may end up spending more on little lights than you could have on a single 250hps. CFLs also add a little length to the flowering. HID's just promote flowering and growth altogether much quicker.

beSafe

edit:: get paper plates, cut holes in the middle of them. Cut 1 slit from the edge to hole and slip it over the top of the pots upside down. Should reflect well and keep moisture retained in the pot.

syde00 · #3 (**permalink**) Apr-25-2009, 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeFree

Looking pretty good. Got any kind of fan circulating air, or are you just moving air through atm? careful on the CFL's, you may end up spending more on little lights than you could have on a single 250hps. CFLs also add a little length to the flowering. HID's just promote flowering and growth altogether much quicker.

beSafe

edit:: get paper plates, cut holes in the middle of them. Cut 1 slit from the edge to hole and slip it over the top of the pots upside down. Should reflect well and keep moisture retained in the pot.

yep, there is a a 5 or 6" diameter fan in the ceiling of the cab with some ducting attached to it at the moment to pull air from a little closer down near the plants, i have a few more of them, i;m thinking about adding a second one... it was very out-of-season warm here today and i noticed the temp inside the cab went up quite a bit with that... gave me a bit of an idea as to what to expect in a couple months when its like that everyday

I hear you about the CFLs... i think it probably would of been cheaper for me to go HPS... but i;'ve got too much invested in it now, and at least i can use the CFLs around the house later on when they are not in use.

as for the paper plates... that is an excelent idea! my dryness problem hasn;t been much of a problem lately... but i was getting a little pissed lately when i noticed some algae growing on the perlite... the paper plates should help kill that off

syde00 · #4 (**permalink**) Apr-26-2009, 17:54

Alright heres a Day 11 pic update.. cab arrangement has been changed again a bit... liking this alot better.

I also added the paper plates on-top of the soil that BeFree suggested

this should actually do alot of things:

1. keep temps around the plants down a bit (white plates reflect light, instead of the black soil absorbing it and converting to heat)
2. help keep moisture in the soil
3. reflect other-wise wasted light back up at the plants

win-win-win

plant #2 (pic 2) still looks a little crappy from when i think i scorched it a little being too close to the lights, new growth looks good though.

i've noticed a couple of small spots on some of the leafs like you can see in pic #1... is this something i need to worry about? i don;t see any other signs of pests anywhere so i;m not sure what could be causing that?

BeFree · #5 (**permalink**) Apr-26-2009, 18:51

Looking good. Nice green growth.

But the small yellow/brown spots could be from a little splash of water or just because it's the second set of true leaves and just die off as -hopefully- she matures. Like getting your adult teeth, first the young ones must fall out. The upward leaf taco'ing means something, I'm just not too sure. But I am certain it's not too good. Downward taco curled leafs means salt build up. Hopefully someone can help ya out.

beSafe

syde00 · #6 (**permalink**) Apr-26-2009, 19:12

ah the water spots totally explains it!

i know i have seen them with big drops of water on the leafs after watering them and i didn;t really think much of it to get that off... but now that you mention that, i realize the drops of water was focus'ing the light like a magnifying glass and burned a hole in them! oops! probably happened when i took them out of the cab and put them on the inside of the patio door to catch some intense afternoon sun... i hope they'll forgive me

jakezking · #7 (**permalink**) Apr-27-2009, 15:38

syde00, your plants look really good. Cali Orange - I can't wait to see the hair! How many CFLs do you have, and have you noticed any heat associated with them? As all of my grows have been outside, I'm not nearly as familiar with indoor growing; 1 day when I have a bit of cash, I want to move indoors - at least during the winter months; and, when that day comes, I hope to know more of what I want/need. I've always read CFLs eliminate much in the way of heat issues, but wondered if that was tempered by the number of CFLs.

Take good care.

syde00 · #8 (**permalink**) Apr-27-2009, 17:37

hey jakezking, thanks for stopping in

for the lights... right whats in there is:

6x 23watt (1600 lumens @ 6500K) - these are the ones in the parabolic refelectors
4x 29watt (2200 lumens @ 2700K)

they are arranged that each plant is basically dedicated a 6500K bulb + a 2700K bulb and then there is 1 more 6500K bulb per 2 plants

I was planning to veg off the 6500Ks on their own, but then i started reading about people mixing it up a bit... i had the parts and the bulbs... so i figured i'd give it a try.

when i move onto flowering i'll be switching to 6x 29watt 2700K + 4x 42watt 2600 lumens @ 2700K bulbs

this has been working pretty well so far.. i keep the lights as close as i can, and this seems to be helping with keeping them bushy even though its a sativa dom hybrid... i haven;t measured but i'd say they are still under 6" in height and i can see the some leaf growth already that is the start of the 5th node.

edit: i totally forgot about the heat issues you mentioned lol... there certainly is some heat build up from the CFLs... i couldn;t compare it to a HPS because i've never used one... but considering from what i've read you need to keep an HPS about 20" away from the plants otherwise you'll burn them... well my heat problems seem pretty minor in comparison as my CFLs generally sit around the 2" away mark as best i can.

i do have a 5 or 6" industrial fan in the top and passive air intake at the bottom... i think i'll be adding a second fan to the roof though as I know heat is going to become a bigger problem in a month or 2

syde00 · #9 (**permalink**) Apr-27-2009, 17:39

as for a day 12 update...

plants seem a tad on the droopy side today, not sure what the deal is, the soil still feels moist so I don;t think they are in need of water...

i added a small desk fan into the cab about 30 minutes ago to help get the air circulating inside

syde00 · #10 (**permalink**) Apr-27-2009, 19:38

hrm... this droopyness seems to be getting worse.. some of the leaves look like they are curling under themselves. i popped the paper plates off the top to check if they needed watering and they still feel moist, certainly not dried out... i've been trying to find some information as to what it might be and it seems it could be:

1. under-watering
2. over-watering
3. magnesium deficiency (but i don;t think its this one)

the pic is of the one that is the worst, which sadly is also my favorite one!

I have not watered them since Friday afternoon... and they were fine up until sometime today... i had been watering every other day before... but Sunday they just didn;t feel like they needed it... and they don;t really today either... i think maybe just the paper plates are making the water near the top evaporate much slower than the water gets sucked up from below by the plant... so logically i am thinking under-watering... but the fact that the soil still feels most also makes it seem like over-watering?

anybody have any thoughts? it isn;t a huge problem yet, so i don;t really want to post about it in the plant problems forum just yet, as i think its something simple...

maybe i should try just giving one of them water and see if it perks up?

syde00 · #11 (**permalink**) Apr-27-2009, 19:54

haha, oops forgot to post the pic

jakezking · #12 (**permalink**) Apr-27-2009, 21:29

syde, as your plants don't look over-watered, I'd go ahead and add a bit of water. I agree they look a bit droopy, and seeing as how they haven't received water since Friday, I'd say the soil at the bottom of the planters must be a bit dry - as you suggested, the surface remaining moist due to to the paper plates.

I appreciate all of the information on your lighting. It will really help me make a decision on lighting for when I move forward with that indoor dealio.

Good luck, my friend!

Jerry Garcia 2007 · #13 (**permalink**) Apr-27-2009, 22:11

Syde,

Hello I have gone over your entire log and can't seem to find anything about your watering technique. It will help if you go into detail about your routine. Include how much water you use every watering, any nutes or supplements you may be using. I do think you mentioned you had them in 1 gallon pots but what is your soil mixture also.

We should be able to figure out what is happening with that info.

JG

syde00 · #14 (**permalink**) Apr-28-2009, 09:49

Hey guys

well, I gave them some water last night ~10PM EST.

I checked in on them this morning but there seems to be no change really, they don;t really look any better, but they also don;t look any worse and they do appear to be continueing to grow at a normal pace... i suppose i could be over-analyzing here a bit, but the curl on some of those leaves seems like alot... but theres also absolutely no discolouration anywhere on them

JG - thanks for stopping in

the watering scheduling so far has been roughly every other day, when i had them in 4" pots (transplanted up to the 1gal pots around Day 8) they seemed to need it everyday at that point, but i kinda blamed that on the lights being so close to the soil and evaporating it quicker than normal. When i water them I basically give them just enough until i see a little bit of run-off coming out... i'd say on average about 100-250ml's of run-off comes out (sorry, not familiar enough with fluid oz and quarts to think in those terms!) I generally don;t pay a ton of attention to how much i;m putting in though... basically once i see the run-off start i stop putting more in. I know they are holding some of it though, as the weight of the pot is significantly heavier after watering like it should be.

I am not giving them any nutes at all yet, they are not even 2 weeks old just yet so there should still be lots of nutes in the soil for them to suck up... they have been getting nothing but tap water that has been sitting out for > 24 hours before being used (not sure of my chlorine content, but i figured no reason risking it on something so simple to avoid).

The soil is Hortibec Premium Nature Mix - Vegetable Garden & Herb Mix which is made up of Peat Moss, Compost, Humus and Sand... not sure on the ratios though, and i;m also unsure of its initial NPK values (might have the NPK on the package... i'll check when i get home tonight). I did however add perlite and vermiculite to hortibec soil, i mixed at a ratio of roughly 2 parts soil, 1 part perlite, 1 part vermiculite.

I kinda realize what I;m about to say is kind of like asking somebody to punch me in the face but... i do have no idea what my Ph levels are... i have been shopping around for a good test kit but have not come across a good option yet... i have found a couple soil test kits which test for a few things aside from just Ph, however the kits i have seen are either single-use or double-use kits and they cost about $10... $10 for a single-use or even double-use kit just seems like a huge scam to me... i have seen one place that sells regular ph stripes (at least i think thats what it is)... they are in a relatively small pill bottle like a small asprin bottle so i couldn't actually see what was in it, but it was a little over $20 for that, which again doesn;t seem like a great deal for litmus paper... and i also know litmus paper tests on soil run-off water is well... a little inaccurate at *best* and could be extremely inaccurate.. so again, that doesn;t seem like a wise investment... i'd much rather spend the extra money on a decent digital pen or something but i haven;t done enough research yet into figure out if i can get a decent one for say < $100 (i also don;t know what a "decent" one is yet).

i know my issue could be a slight ph issue, especially with the peat moss in the soil, as i know as it breaks down it becomes acidic, but the soil does also have humus in it which should help buffer the ph to keep it more consistent.

sorry, i know my posts can sometimes be a bit long and i can tend to blab on a bit lol... but i work in the IT field, and I know very well, that quite often big problems come from the smallest of details... so i;m kinda just throwing all my thoughts out there and seeing what sticks!

thanks for your help

BeFree · #15 (**permalink**) Apr-28-2009, 12:53

I could be wrong, considering you have sand, perlite, and vermiculite in your medium. But some spots could have been moist at one time and dried up so tightly that water runs around the most heavily rooted area. They don't seem to be having that bad of a PH issue. But getting a nice pen and dialing it in around 6.5 will definitely show improvements by gifting you with explosive growth.

http://www.plantlightinghydroponics....monitors-c-373

http://www.htgsupply.com/productsubc...?categoryID=13

besafe

syde00 · #16 (**permalink**) Apr-28-2009, 14:06

hrm, thats an interesting thought about dry pockets in the soil... how would one go about correcting a problem like that? the only thing i can think of would be to basically flood the crap out of them during a watering session to make sure the water stays in the pot long enough to sucked up by the dry pockets.

I did just run home during my lunch break and took a quick peak at them... they do seem to have perked up a bit since this morning... i think... its kind hard to tell, i should stop looking at them so often so i see more dramatic changes instead of small incremental changes that are harder to see

going to look into the whole ph testing problem when i come home from work.

what do you think is a better approach?

1. a ph meter designed for soil that goes right into the soil
2. a ph meter that designed for testing liquids, and then testing the run-off water Ph?

(1) seems like its kind of more what i care about... but it seems the meters designed to go right into soil do not work at all for testing liquids, so i still wouldn;t have a way of testing my tap water ph... which ultimately makes it impossible for me to actually correct a ph problem since i'd have no way of knowing if i am flushing with correctly ph'd water... i could get some cheap litmus papers for this i suppose...

i kinda prefer option (2) even though i know testing run-off water isn;t as good as the soil itself... but option 2 just seems more versatile, and not to mention, the digital soil meters seem a tad expensive... though the analog ones are pretty reasonably priced, but i also suspect their quality and accurance is not nearly as good

i;m also assuming that when it comes to the digital meters... Hanna is the way to go? i see the Milwaukee ones look a little cheaper, but i;ve only ever heard people mention Hanna meters on these boards.

Jerry Garcia 2007 · #17 (**permalink**) Apr-28-2009, 18:08

Syde,

Thanks that helped.

I have an opinion of what is happening now. Please keep in mind I am giving you some constructive criticism so do not take anything wrong, I am only trying to help. I did the same mistakes my first grow.

I feel your droopy leaves are caused by a couple of things, but mainly over watering. Watering every couple days is way to often for a plant that size in one gallon pots. The good thing is you are watering correctly by watering until it flows from the bottom. Again I use the keep it simple rule of thumb. I water the same way but when done I lift the pot to judge its weight. Then every day I lift the pot to check its weight again. I do this until I feel the pot weighs 1/3 of the weight just after watering. For a plant that size in 1 gallon pots should take around 5 days or more. The MJ plant likes slightly dry soil not saturated, plus letting the soil slightly drying out makes the roots grow to all areas of the pot looking for moisture therefore a bigger root structure =bigger buds.

Next I think you transplanted to early and is contributing to your problems also. I wait until roots are coming out the drain holes before I transplant. For a plant to get root-bound would take around a month in the first pots you used. Also by waiting longer the root structure holds everything together nicely and make transplanting a simple process. But the reason this may be adding to your problem roots may have been damaged during your transplant if it did not go smoothly and is still in the recovery phase.

What I remember about my first grow was that I could not leave the plant alone for a minute, and was always in danger of loving them to death. Now that I have the experience I may only check them for 20 min a day other than that I just let them do their thing and grow.

Hope this helps you out and Keep Growin

JG

syde00 · #18 (**permalink**) Apr-28-2009, 18:31

JG,

that totally makes sense and i appreciate the feedback, i wouldn;t of started the thread if i was going to throw a fit when somebody was going to give me criticism... i;m new to this and i know it... i feel i have a bit of knowledge based reading a ton of stuff here, but i;m also smart enough to know that i don;t know even close to everything

the overwatering makes sense, and it was on my list of possible causes, so i'm glad to see i wasn;t way out in left field with that one

I just feel horrible now that i gave them more water yesterday! haha

watering does seem to be a little bit of a tricky one... i mean, its a really simple thing, but at the same time it seems so different for everybody and there are alot of variables that come into play... it seems to be one of those things that no matter how much you read about it (of which there is actually rather little info on these boards... except for "check the soil moisture about an inch or so down" and "the biggest problem with newbies is over-watering"). nobody can really tell you exactly what the soil should feel like since its all relative to so many other variables - your soil mix being the most obvious one... my soil being dry might feel completely different than the next guys..so not having a reference point to begin with makes it a little tricky... so kinda learn by doing i guess

as for when i transplant before... i actually did have roots at the bottom of the pots at the drainage holes poking their way out a little bit, and i had read that when you see roots growing out the bottom it means they are becoming root bound, so thats why i transplanted them before, but admititly, it did seem very early to be doing it at the time. The root ball did hold together fairly well when i did the transplant, but once i did pull them out of the previous pots i didn;t think they were as root bound as i had initialy thought at the time... there was lots of visible root structure at the bottom of the root ball, but it certainly wasn;t as filled out as i had thought it would be... again, just one of those things i think i need to learn by doing.

i;m kind of big on the whole trial and error thing when it comes to most problems in life, so i;m not worried at all about making mistakes and i;m really glad theres a big support community like this one to help people like me learn the basics

again, much appreciated! i'll let them chill out on their own for a few days and we'll see what happens

jakezking · #19 (**permalink**) Apr-28-2009, 18:45

syde00, it looks like I gave you some bad advice - my sincere apologies, and my sincere thanks to JG for spotting the issue and providing much better, experienced advice. I've learned something here as well - ask more questions before providing advice and if I am unsure of an answer, ensure I provide my advice with a grain of salt.

Best of luck in your continued grow, my friend!

killa12345 · #20 (**permalink**) Apr-28-2009, 19:00

i would have to agree with JG on this one.....underwatering usually shows a wilting effect along with droopy leafs....the pictures look like overwatering......i would of said as well as distance to the light but 2 inches is fine....id not water those puppies for like 4-6 days you should see a noticable improvement! Good Luck! Oh yeah and mixing the CFL works good but i tend to mix them according to stretch....if its a indica...i add more 2700k to my veg...closer to 60/40...opposite for sativas 80/20....helps control plant size in small areas..

syde00 · #21 (**permalink**) Apr-28-2009, 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakezking

syde00, it looks like I gave you some bad advice - my sincere apologies, and my sincere thanks to JG for spotting the issue and providing much better, experienced advice. I've learned something here as well - ask more questions before providing advice and if I am unsure of an answer, ensure I provide my advice with a grain of salt.

Best of luck in your continued grow, my friend!

no worries at all

it was actually the way i was leaning myself at the time too

headshake · #22 (**permalink**) Apr-28-2009, 19:39

i would stay away from hanna meters. i've heard a lot of bad things. stinky used to recommend milwaukee.

a good way to tell if your plants need watering is to pick up your pots by the rim, with your index finger and thumb on both hands. (think of a diamond if you weren't holding the pot.) bounce the pot up and down and get a feel for the weight of it. do this when they are dry and after you just waterd. this will help you get a better feel for when your plants need to be watered/fed.

-shake

Jerry Garcia 2007 · #23 (**permalink**) Apr-28-2009, 20:08

Syde,

Thanks for the kind words, I had to put that first sentence in due to I have been blasted too many times by know it all newbies that it gets frustrating at times. It is my way of heading it off if it may happen with "think before you respond".

But glad you took that advice, and I will keep checking in to see how things are going.

BOL
JG

syde00 · #24 (**permalink**) Apr-28-2009, 20:21

shake - thanks for the tips on watering and the ph meter

JG - yeah I know how it goes... I can't say that I haven;t done the same myself... i'm new to these boards but i've seen that type of behaviour in many other places before

I;m here to learn, and when I can, help others with what I know too, so its all good

syde00 · #25 (**permalink**) Apr-30-2009, 13:02

Alright, got a couple of questions for those of you with more experience than me (which is probably all of you lol)

1. Detecting a plant that is root bound... like i mentioned before, one of the detection methods I have read here is looking for roots growing out the bottom of the pots... my plants are in 1 gal pots at the moment (well, slightly less than 1gal), the plants are only about 4" tall at the moment, so these potters should be good to hold them until about 12" (going by the guideline of 1 foot per gallon of soil).... now for a few days already, i have had visible roots at the drain holes of the pots, some of which are starting to try pretty hard to come out of the pot... i can;t imagine that my 4" plant could have this pot root bound already, but here are a couple pics... pic #1 is the plant from the top so you have an idea of how large it is, and pic #2and 3 is some of its roots coming out the bottom... i know its not excessive, but basically, how much is enough? sorry, i know pic #2 is a little bit blurry, but holding the plant in one hand and the cam in the other didn;t really give me a whole lot of stability lol anyhow, i've seen the roots at the bottom for a few days, but the last day or 2 there have been more and more coming quicker... and if this is going to be a problem soon, i need to get ready for it (I haven;t actualy sourced any 3gal pots locally yet... best i have come across so far is some 1.8gal pots, but i'd rather jump straight to 3gal pots just to avoid one of the transplants... but i;m willing to do the 1.8gal ones if that is a better idea.

is cali orange perhaps just a strain that goes insane with root growth and i need to step up the transplant schedule because of this?

2. as you can also see in pic #1, some of my leaves from the over-watering are still quite curly... will these leaves straighten themselves out at some point? (ie. when the soil has gone through a proper dry cycle) or will those leaves stay like that forever? the newer growth seems to not be curling at all, so i;m happy about that right now.

3. pic #4 is a shot of one of the plants first true leaves... it seems to be *very slowly* developing the yellow/brown spots you can see in in the pic... is this a problem? or is it simply old growth that the plant doesn;t need/want anymore and is basically slowly dying off normally? or is this possibly some kind of nute/micro-nute deficiency?

TIA!

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