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Jul-22-2008, 02:23
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Contradictions! Seriously - WTF!?
I swear to dog I am going to lose it. Those of a sensitive nature may wish to skip this post and move on to something else. Also, I mean no offense whatsoever to those who have actually grown these plants and have had experience with certain things that have worked or not worked - it is just that I am fed up with running in circles with information. So, I am going to have a real good rant now.
As a complete newbie to growing this sort of plant, but not being new to either gardening or growing plants indoors, I've been trying to absorb as much information possible about these specific little critters. I've got a bunch of ebooks, videos, archived web sites, and of course the living, breathing web to draw on. And what am I learning?
I am learning that a substantial number of people giving advice about growing these plants are completely and utterly full of shit. No, that doesn't mean YOU specifically. Don't get your panties/boxers in a bunch. I mean people who just pull crap out of their arses who have never grown, or have never done anything but one specific kind of growing or whatever but consider themselves an authority on all things cannabis. Because of this, I think I just found teeth marks in my keyboard - I must have been subconsciously chewing on it while I was curled up in the foetal position on the floor after reading yet ANOTHER piece of contradictory information.
Over the last few weeks, I have found information that directly contradicts other information on lighting, feeding, pot size, transplanting, seed starting, cloning, soil, water, environment, male vs. female plants, and temperature – and more. And I don't mean one person says 68F is good, and another says 70F is good. I mean I'll find one source that says 68-74F is perfect, then one that says 80-88F is perfect, and then another that says the warmer the better but don't go over 96-98F, and growing under 85F produces slow, limited growth. And out of all of those things, I found only one source that said "temperature tolerances of the plants may vary by strain", and only one other that said "this is what worked for me, but I have not tried anything else so your mileage may vary". Lighting is the worst of all - how much, what colour, what wattage, what process is used to produce the light, where it is hung, what materials are reflective vs "absorbing" light... when faced with the sum total of all this, the ONLY conclusion I have been able to draw is that I should try something out and if it works out, great. If not, tough rocks, start over with something different. Not exactly the most affordable solution for me since all I live on is a small gov't disability cheque, but oh well. Like I said, tough rocks - for me.
The worst part of this all is the utterly and completely nonsensical aspect of some of the information available - some of it simply has no scientific or logical basis at all. I am not going to cite one of the half dozen specifics on the top of my head, but much of the information ends up being of this sort of quality: Guy grows plants. While growing his plants, he injures his testicles and has to have a hernia operation. While home recuperating, he produces his best yield ever. So, rather than concluding it was because of his extra time and attention dedicated to his plants, he decides that it was his groin pain that led to his better yield. This means that for every grow from then on, he punches himself in the balls daily to ensure good growth. He then goes on a forum on the web recommending nut punches for all growers to improve the quality of their plants.
Is this ridiculous? Of course it is. But, that is the state of the information out there (even in some of the books). Someone arrives at a conclusion without any significant supporting research and just continues to believe that, never trying to prove or disprove it. I get it - of all people I know that turning something you paid $5-25 a seed for into a science project might not be the wisest thing to do... but really, do they HAVE to put it up as gospel on a web page and shamelessly plug it as the only way to do things?
Growing plants of any kind successfully is a combination of art and science. The part where you get the plants to grow at all is usually the science part. The part where you get them to grow really well is the art part. Sometimes knowing just when to water or fertilize for the best yield (be it tomatoes, marigolds or cannabis) is more about instinct and feeling than it is about precise, raw data analysis. But, there is one thing it isn't - it is not a religion. Religion is believing something is true based on faith, even if there is not conclusive scientific evidence or data to support it. Yet, over and over I find people calling their growing information a "bible", as though some prophet was inhaling fumes while burning a bush when out popped a stone tablet with THE definitive 420 steps of instructions on how to produce a good, solid, high-quality weed and they based all their future plantings of ganja on that list and that list alone. It really is enough to make your head asplode!
I know from experience with other plants that usually the most ideal growing conditions for a plant are the conditions under which the plant evolved (or was bred) in. Deviations from this may produce improved results but there is almost always a trade-off. You might get more fruit from something in a single harvest, but it may not live as long. Alternatively, you can extend the life of some plants beyond what nature provided but that often leads to smaller yields in the short term, or lower quality fruit/leaves/herbs, or stunted growth, or overgrowth, or some other balancing factor. The plants evolved the way they did because that was the best genetic stock, the plants that were able to produce the most seeds to reproduce themselves produced the most offspring, and eventually those of inferior genetic stock were driven out. Yup, Ma Nature is a bitch - but at least she is not vindictive about it. It happens to everyone and everything over time on this little blue and green marble we call home.
There is only one way to prove something works, in terms of science. That is to have an ‘experimental group’ and a ‘control group’, and expose both to the exact same controlled conditions. You can’t insist that one kind of plant food is the best or the worst unless you have experimented with them all, tested them under identical conditions, and have generated reproducible results with qualitative data. “My buddy used powdered reindeer colons and he gets the best dank ever” or “I tried Miracle Gro and all I got was a bunch of schwag” are not conclusive or scientific results – that’s just how things turned out in that specific situation. It is the starting point to experiment from, not the definitive conclusion – yet over and over certain individuals INSIST that this is proof of the efficacy or lack thereof of a particular method or substance or piece of equipment. What you have there is a possible contributing factor, not evidence or proof.
I’m sorry, but I am just really tired of it. The plant is called weed for a reason – because in its natural environment, it grows like one. Reproduce as much of that environment as you can, and you will do well. There are a few ways to really screw it up, but from what I have seen and read about almost everything is recoverable (short of the plants being completely dead) with patience, persistence and determination. There doesn’t appear to be any absolute right or wrong as long as you treat it like a plant and give it what it needs, just things that can make things a little better here and there. Nothing is absolutely foolproof – fools are much too resilient for that – but sharing what works for you without insisting that someone MUST do it only your way is, in my opinion, the most helpful you can be (which, BTW, I have noticed is the attitude of the most helpful people on this site).
Please, share what has worked for you – don’t stop. But remember that unless you have done every possible combination and permutation of growing, there is no way you know the one, perfect true way to do it. We should all be here to listen and learn, even the most experienced at something will occasionally get an idea or inspiration from the newest person doing it. Even the most expensive setup can occasionally produce poorly, and even the cheapest can produce unexpectedly well - such is life.
I appreciate every bit of honest information I can come by. I appreciate when someone says “What worked for me was” X or Y or Z. But those of you who have only ever done things one way and that was “good enough”, well, share what worked for you (or if some specific thing didn’t) but don’t attack what you don’t know. There are enough Monday Morning Quarterback Growers around as it is.
Believe me, us noobs will find it a lot easier to follow if there are fewer people insisting there is only one true path (especially if it is a path that demands $1000 or more in startup costs) to growing.
And we’ll thank you for it, in the end.
Last edited by PottyBear; Jul-22-2008 at 02:28.
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Jul-22-2008, 06:51
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I needed a sermon this morning.
Preach it, bruthaman. Can I get a Ramen?
Keep it simple stoner. And if ya don't know wtf you're talking about... please keep your mouf in the 'closed' position and your ears turned ON. 
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Jul-22-2008, 09:08
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Potty I hear you we all aren't experts but to find the best way is intake not just I know it all attitude. My plants with mirrors around them are doing great they are all about 20 inches tall and budding the entire length of the stems but I was told to shut up and don't spek so to Hell with the supposed experts. I will still enjoy my Master kush without the expert advise given here. I am also disabled and have nothing othert than to look after my baby buds. Oh what a joy it is to see any dumbass can grow a weed.
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Jul-22-2008, 09:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melskid
Potty I hear you we all aren't experts but to find the best way is intake not just I know it all attitude. My plants with mirrors around them are doing great they are all about 20 inches tall and budding the entire length of the stems but I was told to shut up and don't spek so to Hell with the supposed experts. I will still enjoy my Master kush without the expert advise given here. I am also disabled and have nothing othert than to look after my baby buds. Oh what a joy it is to see any dumbass can grow a weed.
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thats why they call it "weed"
fire it up! 
Last edited by SouthernGuerilla; Jul-22-2008 at 09:11.
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Jul-22-2008, 09:13
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exactly
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Jul-22-2008, 09:19
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Lol you're still mad that SnS asked you VERY politely to stop threadjacking his grow log?
Episode 3...Revenge of the LED
Please. Start your own log and PROVE to the doubters that mirrors are better than mylar or white paint!
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Jul-22-2008, 09:35
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I have not read or looked at SNS' site since he told me not to comment on using a procyon on his grow log site I will enjoy my growth he can enjoy his. A growing from something new it would seem to me needs more than one point of view . But that's just my opinion kind of like anyone elses in here it is all a little bit of luck and technique so I will find another source to read about using new technoligies other than a site where it is a forbidden to comment on a grow using basically the samething. Anyone else in here know of a different chat site for growing buds?
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Jul-22-2008, 09:57
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There are plenty of others, and they run the whole gamut from virtually unmoderated forums or forums where the moderation staff does not care about accuracy of information, to sites where accuracy is number one (like this one). You will find that there is an inverse relationship between the collective EXPERIENCE of a site's members, and the TOLERANCE of those members for the posting of incorrect information.
When you find a site where the members understand that growing plants is a SCIENCE, not a matter of opinion, you will find a place where fact is fact, and help is helpful. You've found one here, if you choose to take advantage of it. There are as any styles of growing as there are growers, but %reflectivity numbers are a quantifiable amount and not open to interpretation.
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Jul-22-2008, 10:34
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You===SNS my plants are doing great I put them in the planters you see most plants come in gallon containers with the holes in the boottom and sides and put hangers under them to drain any excess water from them. I also put a fan in the closet and that has made it to where I can water it everyday instead of every 4 days. My Master kush plant is starting to grow some nice buds on them and I still have it 4 feet above the plants I have six of them going now and they all are looking great. The Master kush I have growing I brought in from outside is taking off it was perhaps a month old when I brought it in, I knoced off all the dirt from it and put it in potting mix and after a week of looking like it was limp it has been nothing but great since.
Me===thats great melskid....but you mind starting a grow log? Ill come in and check on ya, its a lil proper etiquette on here to not repeatedly update your grow on someone elses grow log...all good in the hood man
whiskeytango
God, I am such an asshole....Why did you have to get your panties twisted? why not just start your own grow log, and we all would've gladly came in and given advice..Like you are using mirrors? read up on that, I wont even give you my "hell with the experts" advice, because I dont even consider myself an "expert" by any means....Grow up man...
Sorry for the tirade on your thread Potty, and I hear ya man...Trial and error are what will teach ya. I train dogs for a living, and there are 30 different dog trainers SWEARING that their way is the ONLY way. And it applies in here as well...the best advice I can give ya, is what I do. Take in 3-4 methods for what you are trying to accomplish...And on to good ole trial and error...There are only 4-5 what I would call "experts". But in the nature of the site, discussing what works is what we do...different methods tried and explained=new techniques.....Smoke a fatty when reading, I know it can get aggravating. But when looking for help or advice, if someone gives it to ya, read up on their threads and grows...maybe you will be able to tell who you should listen too....theres my 
whiskeytango
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Your style will eventually match your grow area and the amount of time and money you like to put into initial setup vs. long term maintenance.-stinkyattic
"Boy, the next words outta your mouth better be some brilliant Mark Twain shit...cause it is definitely getting chiseled on your tombstone"-Otis Driftwood
LED growing- An instructional grow log
Episode 3...Revenge of the LED
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Jul-22-2008, 22:16
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I wish I had something to smoke, but I don't. That's why I am trying to grow something... I had to make a choice. Spend the money on trying to grow and hopefully be able to have a sufficient supply in a couple of months, or go and spend what little $$ I have to buy some from a compassion centre and run out before I can afford more. This is an investment in the long term.
Anyway, I have a log going for what I am doing. Everything is being done as cheap as I possibly can do it, and it has STILL cost well over $100 to get started with seeds and all. And if I had not already had some equipment on hand because I grow other plants, it would be heading for $200+.
Nothing is so disheartening than to have people insist that you have to have a $200-400 light or some fertilizer that costs $50 per drop or not to use "cheap" potting soil (if it is cheap or none, well, cheap it is...). But then it just gets worse: even if you have everything you need (or that you think you need) and you get all set up, you hit google for some further info and find 10 different sites with 10 different "right ways" to do it, and half of them are the complete OPPOSITE of the other half. And I swear if I see one more person say that BOILING water is the same as DISTILLING water or that you can reduce the hardness of water by putting it on the stove for a few minutes, I am going to have a conniption.
I can only imagine some poor schlub who has lived in an apartment his/her whole life (and has never had so much as a houseplant) getting sick, getting a medical card, and discovering that $150+ a month is beyond their means and deciding to start trying to grow their own. I'd guess that half of them simply give up in despair after a few days of trying to decipher it all, and the other half start by pawning their television, xbox and guitar in order to have to cash to buy some monstrosity of a light that has the equivalent candlepower of the sun (and that they won't be able to afford to turn on due to the electric bill), because that's what the "experts" told them to do.
I really admire folks like BobBong (I think that's what his name was) and others who have shown that you can grow on the cheap with CFL bulbs and a pot of dirt in a small space.
The dollar store and Wal-Mart have been my friends in this project. Sure, I don't have space station grade mylar to line my walls - but what I do have cost me $2 for 2 packages and is better than nothing, and the other alternative is selling a child into slavery to have the funds to purchase it from NASA. I think I can live with the "wrinkles and folds" and that it is "too thin" since it still makes the inside of my greenhouse look like the planet Mercury on a sunny day. I'd have used aluminum foil or dollar store mirrors if they were the only alternatives and to heck with what any Mr. I-Need-A-Massive-Yield-To-Supply-All-My-Friends says.
Our neighbour apparently used to grow on a windowsill and did just fine. I'm going to try and do a little better than that. I'd just like to know that I am not killing my seedlings by transplanting them "wrong" or having the temperature "wrong". Is that so much to ask?
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Jul-23-2008, 07:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PottyBear
...and the other half start by pawning their television, xbox and guitar in order to have to cash to buy some monstrosity of a light
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What? That's a bad thing to encourage? (Says the chick who hasn't owned a TV in years and whose last game system was a Super NES)
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Jul-23-2008, 07:18
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Someone really pissed you off huh. You wanna grow cheap? Then grow cheap! My first grow was miracle grow, and a hand me down 600HPS. My circulation was a fan that i moved around...thats it....If you are growing for just you, a few 23w CFLs will do the trick...Is this gonna be a rant thread? Or are you gonna log your grow?
whiskeytango
you managed to get stinky's attention, so while you got her, I would ask anything you need to know...She is one of the most knowledgeable growers I have met...or typed to....lol
__________________
Your style will eventually match your grow area and the amount of time and money you like to put into initial setup vs. long term maintenance.-stinkyattic
"Boy, the next words outta your mouth better be some brilliant Mark Twain shit...cause it is definitely getting chiseled on your tombstone"-Otis Driftwood
LED growing- An instructional grow log
Episode 3...Revenge of the LED
Last edited by SnSstealth; Jul-23-2008 at 07:20.
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Jul-23-2008, 09:24
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Still can't find my camera wires to hook up to the computer sooner or later I'll figure out how to write a grow log also. I'm still learning how to use my computer. Best thing to do in my uninformed opinion is to move to Ca and just grow em outside I got 28ounces from two plants last year. I bought my procyon from reading SNS' site but with the reception I get for not knowing the supposed rules was startling to say the least. Keep up the good fight and keep the home fires burning
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Jul-23-2008, 09:40
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Just for future reference, the 'supposed rules' are in fact a sticky at the top of the 'Grow Log' forum section. You can't get banned for it, but it's considered poor form.
Threadjacking as it applies to grow logs
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Jul-24-2008, 00:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnSstealth
Someone really pissed you off huh. You wanna grow cheap? Then grow cheap! My first grow was miracle grow, and a hand me down 600HPS. My circulation was a fan that i moved around...thats it....If you are growing for just you, a few 23w CFLs will do the trick...Is this gonna be a rant thread? Or are you gonna log your grow?
whiskeytango
you managed to get stinky's attention, so while you got her, I would ask anything you need to know...She is one of the most knowledgeable growers I have met...or typed to....lol
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I have felt very privileged to read many of stinky's how-tos and pieces of advice. They are great, and I appreciate the tidbits I get from her info more than full-blown how-tos that I have seen in 90% of the other online "guides". I'm not sure I have a lot more questions, she's put most everything I need out there already.
And it isn't "someone" who pissed me off... it is the whole thing in general. We're trying to do this for some medicine for my illness, which causes me to have extreme fatigue and pain. The more I read, the more exhausted I get because it doesn't matter if I move my body or use my brain, it all uses up energy I don't have. I want medicine so I can have enough energy to deal with my own OUTDOOR gardens instead of staying in bed... and instead I'm using it all up on this indoor planting of just a few seeds. The wife was originally going to grow these seeds for me - she ordered them and everything, but after reading so much contradictory info she didn't know what to do. Since I am the "lead gardener" in this house, so to speak, it fell to me to figure out why different people say completely different things for something that is relatively basic for most beginners. Her big conspiracy theory is that people are making it sound complicated so you won't want to grow yourself, you'll have to buy it from them.
Yes... this is a rant thread! My grow log is in the grow logs section. I have 4x27W 6500K CFL bulbs shining down on my little semi-retarded-looking seedlings right now as we speak. And EVERY time I try and find some little specific morsel of info so I feel like I know what I am doing, I have to wade hip-deep into the sewage pond on the WWW in order to retrieve that little tiny gem of truth. It's smelly, tiring, time-consuming and frustrating. Well, except maybe the smelly part (sniffing armpits). Nope, not actually smelly... yet.
No matter what it is, I tend to lose it when someone tries to push some product of some kind on you claiming it is the perfect solution to your woes. Pile on top of that the number of people with opposing views for something as simple as growing a plant and you have a recipe for me pulling a Linda Blair routine.
This site is the one site where it seemed like the "you can't do that" - "yes you can" crap was at a minimum (still exists, but it is much, much less than most forums) and so I signed up so I could post. Doesn't mean I'm not still experiencing things in my google web searches that make me spew pea soup while my head spins around.
Like I said in the title of the post:
Whiskey.
Tango.
Foxtrot.
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Jul-24-2008, 06:43
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then rant on!!!.....lol. I'll find your grow log and add some more non sense advice for ya It can be quite un nerving at times growing, hell, I have been growing for years....and STILL have issues. The grow before this one I lost 24 plants...ended up being over-watering and off Ph I believe...So while this site can be too overwhelming at times....it can save ya 
whiskeytango
__________________
Your style will eventually match your grow area and the amount of time and money you like to put into initial setup vs. long term maintenance.-stinkyattic
"Boy, the next words outta your mouth better be some brilliant Mark Twain shit...cause it is definitely getting chiseled on your tombstone"-Otis Driftwood
LED growing- An instructional grow log
Episode 3...Revenge of the LED
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Jul-25-2008, 16:49
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Yeah, I came to the same conclusion when I started researching indoor growing. I think a lot of these people are getting their information from the big hydro growers, then extrapolating it to small, personal growers. Along the way, priority gets ignored, and some information that can safely be disregarded ends up being accepted as gospel.
Personally, I've found that good weed can be grown at much higher temperatures than most people recommend. I had a plant last year that was almost always above 100 degrees, but it gave me 3 ounces of seedless bud. I've also found that copious amounts of dirt do wonders to your plants' stress tolerance. After all, in the wild they grow on a ball of it that's 8000 miles across. 18-gallon Rubbermaid storage containers work well. Also, plants in the wild grow next to other plants, so I plant 2-4 plants per storage container. They don't seem to mind, and I think it helps to give them a broader root base.
My entire setup cost about $300 including a 400-watt HPS light, but doing it a second time I think I could probably trim $50 to $100 off the cost. I get about 3-4 ounces per grow, which is far more than I can smoke. But I like growing so the weed just keeps piling up. 
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Jul-25-2008, 18:57
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If there is one fact you can rely on is everybodies grows are different. Different strains, different lights, different nutes different enviormental conditions. There is a simple truth. Start simple, build your own experience and take pride in what you are doing. No weed is going ro be as good as your own home grown weed.
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