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devilvenom · #1 (**permalink**) May-10-2009, 03:39

side note
just like to start by saying whats up 2 everybody, the usual's that i see a lot of post from ( you know who you are. informative). it's been about a year or more sense i posted anything worth reading and even then i don't think i contributed too much to this forum which is the only one i've actually been on to this point.

So, I'm on the road to airoponic and phasing soil out, and i went big, too big i don't know this are some of the answers i will be finding out. i used two 70g reservoirs ( they were just there seemed like a good idea) and cut 56 three inch holes on the bottom of one of them. i new very little about airo, still do, i didn't have the internet yet so i had to just wing it. one of my friends made a few Rubbermaid tubes and got inspired by the ez cloner which had worked great for both of us. which is why we used the same sprayers for this monster. Also have two 4in air stones runing on one of those big white air pumps from a failed 5 site 5g DWC set up from deep water inovations or some shit. would also like to know if this fogger deal would be a good idea for my set up, i've read good and bad and can't come to a conclusion.

my first run was a disaster, i had run a 20gpm submersible pump in the res without a recycling timer (which i had no idea even existed) and after four days i had a bunch of limp soggy moldy purple urkls, lost about 70% . i cooked the roots! wasn't even thinking about the water heating up, a lot. so plan abandon and then my set up just sat around for a month.

round two only happen because of my friend success with his Rubbermaid's and he was doing experimental shit to his. so in this past week i found out about inline pumps. cast iron wasn't a great idea but i had no time my batch of clones sat in my ez cloner for too long and were starting to get that soggy shit on the roots and stem, i've heard you could veg in this things but after 14 days i always get this problem, anyone what I'm doing wrong?

so i got it set up, threw my clones and and ran the motherfucker, checked it the next day and had the same heat issue, looked around a few grow sites and got a timer 3 on 5 off and a electric temp gauge to be on the safe side. my temp dropped to about 87f. I'm guessing if i would have started with cold water it would level out at 74f 76f but who knows, i had hot water already and trying to cool it off. tonight May 10th in a desperate act i ran to the store and garbed two bags of ice and a block of ice, 7 pounders. i threw the block in the res and it melted in about 7 min and brought me down to to 74f for about 20 min ( i threw the other two bags on the pump), after an hour it climbed back up to 77f. and as i sit here typing i have turned the the pump off so it start cold, positioned the top res so its open and pointed a fan at the water to see if i can get it down to good temp, and hope that when i turn it back on it will level out some where reasonable and stay that way.

if anyone could point me in the right direction please do every bit helps. i will be updating this weekly hoping it will be use-full to other amtares out there!

LOC NAR on probation · #2 (**permalink**) May-10-2009, 05:30

You need to A/C the place or a water chiller and change the water in the cloner. Temps are most likely causing trouble with the cloner after 2 weeks.

Looks like some good bud going next to it. Is it soil ? Cause soil can take much more heat.

Once you tweak that in you will be happy but heat sounds like it's killing ya man.

VapedG13 · #3 (**permalink**) May-10-2009, 05:49

secondairy or backup pump..incase your main goes out.....

oldmac · #4 (**permalink**) May-10-2009, 09:31

Hello Devilvenom,

Nice aero grow tray you've built there, once you de-bug it you are going to be very happy.

First, I did not see mention of an air pump. But I assume you are probably running one to airate your nute solution. This is going to be the main source of your temp rise. The air pump is taking hot air from your room and pumping it thru the solution....if the ambient air temp is say 80degreesF, the nutes solution will rise to that fairly quickly. If your ambient air temp is 90degrees, well the solution will become that (at least) also. It happens in EZ clonners (that's how I figured it out) and aero system resivoirs. Move the air pump to the coolest location you can, even outside the grow area if necessary.

Second, cycling times could probably use an increase in off times. Currently in an EZ cloner we use 1 min on and 4min off. I have done experiments with a aero/fog set-up that I built, and it uses two seperate fog systems. One is based on a 150psi pump going to inpingement spray nozzles located in the lid. I have found that it needs to run 7 SECONDS every 30 minutes. The other fog comes from a Frapaplas fogger unit that pumps into the tray, it runs 10 minutes every 30 minutes. Either system on its own will run the thing. Redundancy is the way I deal with the pump failure issue btw.

Third, keep in mind that in using an aero/fog set-up you need to run less nutes. My initial experiments showed a 40% solution strength a good starting point and probably no more then 60%.

Guess this is a chance to post a pic of my aero/fog trays again. Mine are 4'x4' and have 138 holes that use 2" net pots and neoprene (Blackstar) collars. Two trays make up the system for a total of 276 plants sites.

NOTE TO WHOEVER; I know it is more then 100 plants, and makes it a "federal" case, BUT it is actually just TWO plants. Since they are clones from one mother, when these things are in production each tray is ONE root mass with 138 geneticly identical branches.

I also included a pic of the Frapaplas fogger unit. The BEST fog generator for horticulural use I have found so far.

Hope something here will help you. I look forward to seeing an update on how your're doing.....just don't give up.

devilvenom · #5 (**permalink**) May-13-2009, 13:29

So here's the update. i switched to 1/4 horse power pump ( 80lpm) which works out to 21g and some change a min. funny thing it's doesn't have the pressure my 20gpm submersible pump had but that one only had like an inch of tubing between it and the sprayers, and now that i got the timers, it's sad to think that's all I might of needed. on the other hand not having to worry about roots growing into my pump is also a plus.

so temp problem solved, except for about a four to five hour period during the day, (when the lights are off) that it peaks to 80.1f. Is that an issue or can i get away with it? not that i have much of a choice at this point. night time it fluctuate's between 74f 78f.

as far as temps go I'm happy with where im at. Now, why dose Europe and the U.S. have to have such different numbers when it comes to PPM's? if my nute solution is based on EC should i go with that or with PPM's? here a little info i found on anther there site, keeping in mind that all plants and grow environments are different.

This is PPM's for indica strains
early veg 500-600
middle veg 600-800
late veg 800-1000
early flower 1000-1300
middle flower 1400-1600
late flower 1000-1100
ripening 300-500

other info i found useful

Nutrient (salt) concentrations are measured by their ability to conduct electricity through a solution. Dissolved ionic salts create electrical current in solution, the main constituent of hydroponic solutions is ionic salts. EC= Electrical Conductivity, CF = Conductivity Factor, PPM = Parts Per Million, TDS = Total Dissolved Solids and DS = Dissolved Solids. Most American growers use PPM, to measure overall fertilizer concentration. PPM is not as accurate, nor consistent as EC, to measure nutrient solution strength.
EC is measured in: (a) Milli-siemens per Centimeter (MS/CM) or (b) Micro-siemens per Centimeter (US/CM). One Micro-siemen/CM = 1000 Milli-siemens/CM.

PPM testers actually measure in EC and convert to PPM. Unfortunately the two scales (EC and PPM) are not directly related. Each nutrient or salt gives a different electronic discharge reading. To overcome this obstacle, an arbitrary standard was implemented which assumes "a specific EC means equates to a specific amount of nutrient solution". Consequently, the PPM reading is not precise at all, it is only an approximation, a ball park figure.

from what i've been able to gather there's a 40% difference between the US and Europe PPM's. so is it to be more american that i should go with US calculations or is there an actual logical reasoning for this?
i bought the truncheon PPM meter and was confused as hell about what to do next, so this is where i'm at and it took forever for the boards to get back online.

according to my meter my well water is at 560 US PPM's and 400 EU PPM's which is to high as far as US ppm's. the Aqau Flakes system I'm using says i should start at 1.2 EC and end at 2.0. So how do i make a decision with such a differnce in the information?

socialistpete · #6 (**permalink**) May-13-2009, 16:02

How far away is each site from the ones surrounding it?

devilvenom · #7 (**permalink**) May-13-2009, 16:56

Between 3 and 4 in, PPM"s here are already at 1250 so I'm trying to figure out how to get 40 t0 60 gallons of good water in it. 10 5g jugs, what a pain. i've read about these r/o systems. any links? not sure i could even go that route at this point.

my temp gage is also pissing me off, i don't know if i can trust it or not. is there anyway to test this fuckers? i set up a 5g bucket so i get a mother going, but my water is reading at 80f even thought it doesn't feel like it. i got the pump running on a 3 on 5 off timer, ( bought a adjustable recycle timer for my big res and just switched them).

socialistpete i saw your 5g set up and wish i would of seen that before, i went on youtube and found this video of setup with 1/2 pvc which i already had laying around form my big setup. but i really liked the 1/2 irrigation tubing. well definitely upgrade to that at some point.

devilvenom · #8 (**permalink**) May-14-2009, 14:53

scratch that temp gage Q. dummy over here didn't realize my ph meter had the temp on it also, even though i've been starring right at it

.

metalhead419 · #9 (**permalink**) May-15-2009, 21:57

I got a 6 stage Reverse Osmosis unit off ebay for 140. Its 100gpd and it de-ionizes. (wont turn your bong white) It takes the ppm of my tap water from 550 or more to around 50. Plants love it.

devilvenom · #10 (**permalink**) May-17-2009, 02:53

so it's been one week since i've embarked on this unholy mess of trying something new. i know now my set up is not true airo but airo/dwc. i have fresh white roots growing out of the older shity ones and newb's poking out all over. i filled my res up all the way to 70g but it still heats up to 80f during the day (lights off). will try implementing fans blowing around the res to leach heat off and one blowing into the res for evaporation.

was able to drop my ppm's to 980 when i added the extra 30g of hose water ( on a well), still high but not as bad as 1200 ppm's. so, i didn't want to sound like an idiot and ask what R/O system was, and metalhead posted and i was armed with new info. then i started searching the forums.

some more Q?

can i hook up one of this r/o to the end of a hose and have it work?

could i hook up a co2 system in the inside of my chamber for the roots, having it pump in co2 for the min the sprayers are going or just in general?

i dropped some dry ice into my res, good or bad?

and now i quote myself

Quote:

Originally Posted by devilvenom

Now, why dose Europe and the U.S. have to have such different numbers when it comes to PPM's? if my nute solution is based on EC should i go with that or with PPM's?

from what i've been able to gather there's a 40% difference between the US and Europe PPM's. so is it to be more american that i should go with US calculations or is there an actual logical reasoning for this?
i bought the truncheon PPM meter and was confused as hell about what to do next, so this is where I'm at and it took forever for the boards to get back online.

according to my meter my well water is at 560 US PPM's and 400 EU PPM's which is to high as far as US ppm's. the Aqau Flakes system I'm using says i should start at 1.2 EC and end at 2.0. So how do i make a decision with such a difference in the information?

thats all for now heres some pics

aerogrowmama · #11 (**permalink**) May-17-2009, 15:25

Go to the pet store and buy an airpump for a fish tank with a long tube and a long flat bubble wand. place the wand in the water with the roots and you are on your way. They actually sell a multi tube pump but you can start with one.

metalhead419 · #12 (**permalink**) May-17-2009, 22:11

reverse osmosis needs a certain water pressure to work, i believe its around 50 psi. I would look into it and make sure you have enough water pressure first. It works by forcing water through an impermeable membrane, which means, water goes through it, and solids dont, but you need enough pressure to force the water through the membrane. They make an RO unit with a pump, not sure how it works, but supposedly it makes the process more efficient so you dont need as much pressure. To answer your question, yes you can hook it up to a hose if it has the correct pressure.

Never heard of dry ice in the resi, might not be a bad thing, but not a good thing for sure.

Pretty sure roots breath oxygen. Thats why you want to oxygenate your water with air stones and h202.

Leaves breathe c02, thats how photosynthesis works, the plant uses the C to make CH2O, which is a carbohydrate, and the 02 is released into the atmosphere as oxygen. Thats super basic, but you get the point.

LOC NAR on probation · #13 (**permalink**) May-17-2009, 23:01

No dry ice in the rez. It can cold burn roots. Use a plastic drink bottles as big as you need and freeze it. The plastic will slow release the cold to the water and not hurt roots. Like a buffer between hot and cold.

devilvenom · #14 (**permalink**) May-19-2009, 03:53

so i fucked up earlier was showing off my roots to a friend and forgot to plug the pump back on,

it was off for a good 2 hours. now my white fluffy roots look like little white Ethiopians. SHIT....

i've read that drought ridden roots don't bounce back and that they have to grow new one. But, this is a great exercise in fuck ups and if anyones wondering how much punishment a little plant can take and still live it'll be from your truly.

before a i was going to post that i had some new pics, i chopped some roots (the catalyst to the drought) that looked funky, they weren't soft or soggy but its here and there and hoping its from what i read on a post earlier that it might be just discoloration from the nutes. all though now, who knows, its no longer the issue.

devilvenom · #15 (**permalink**) May-25-2009, 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by socialistpete

How far away is each site from the ones surrounding it?

i don't know if i wrote that understandable last time but there 2 to 3 inches apart.

hello everybody, where to being.... well lets start with the new fuck ups

. i had drilled some holes it two coroner of the bottom res ( little flat part shaped like a triangle, those of you who know know what I'm talking about) to originally run cords and air lines. found a better way to do it and ended up super gluing some plastic over them so water wouldn't leak out. super glue failed, not realizing where the water all over the floor was coming from about 4 days.

i had filled up the res up to 70g to help with the heat issue (which didn't work on hot days) and lost 40 of those gallons. fixed that with some gorilla tape but didn't think about the other side which failed the next day and dripped all over my air pump. needless to say

. sucked cuz i had just hooked up a new 8 inch disc air stone, its a beauty!

now the good things

. after hooking up a stronger exhaust can fan, and directing the heat outside, completely outside grow area and room, i have dropped the res temp down to 62f when the lights off and slowly creeps up to 71 73 tops depending how hot it gets during the day. it has stayed at 71.2 for the last week when lights are on

.

was also able to find some microwave fans laying around that i was able to convert into intake, out-take for the inside of the root chamber. what else can i call it

? just fyi i got like 19 inches of space with 30g of water between the top and bottom of of this two res's. i mean, thats a lot of space for the roots right? any who, my intake has a pipe that runs down to the first lip of the top res, so it blows air right on top of the water, if its filled up to the full 70g. my out take is only about 3 inches in to suck any heat out the top. had to make a little box for it out of cardboard i took from the box my recycling timer came in, and gorilla tape. love that stuff.

some pics then some more ranting.

devilvenom · #16 (**permalink**) May-25-2009, 16:43

bud drying , plants on the last week, little off subject but i liked the pics

devilvenom · #17 (**permalink**) May-25-2009, 16:54

now that i have spent about 8 hours

, on and off looking up ec, ppm, tds and all that noise. there is just too much out there to put my finger on it. but the one thing that made the most sense to me was to just study your plant closely and look for any sign's of stress. instead of going with ppm, I'm just gonna run with ec since thats what it say on the bottle for the aqua flakes program. i found some AF web pages that said not to use air pumps for the water but found some forums saying it was bad translation from Holland to the english version. anyone know the bottom line on that?

so as you can see my drought might of just slowed me down but didn't knock me out of the game. i was able to get some root excellurator and sure think it helped. even using it on purple urklre clone i had to save but thats for a different post I'm working on. as you can see there's plenty of nice white roots every where. i was trying to work the six week cycle on this purple diesel's but gonna do the eight week cycle now, after all i think it is a seven to eight week strain. i was just trying to force it to finnish early, which i don't now if that even possible.

my ec has stayed at 1.8 for the most part, jumped down to 1.7 for a day or two. as far as i read if it stays consistent i don't have to worry much, (even though its higher then i would like). i should be starting week three of bloom, and once i get some fresh water, try to drop my ec to 1.3 1.4, or since they seem to look ok should i just keep it where it's at and raise weekly from there, what dose anybody with experience think?

since it's doable for me, i figured i'd just get me self a 32g trash can and fill it up at a friend house in town, ppms read at 0.2 ec, just got to bubble it for a day to clean out the chlorine.

one last thing, check this link out, my girlfriend has one of this laying around, never use it, let me know what u think? i'm gonna try it out let everone know what happens.

DIY Reverse Osmosis - For Scale Grower - Cheap, Portable, & Effective - Page 7 - International Cannagraphic Magazine Forums

devilvenom · #18 (**permalink**) May-25-2009, 17:10

had to pluck this bitch out.

devilvenom · #19 (**permalink**) Jun-01-2009, 01:15

really after this whole damn time! good shit, really cleared up shit about ppm's, besides why the fuck there calculated different, but that don't matter no more, 4th week starting out great!!!

:yipp ee:

just one thing though, i found aphids in my roots, can this get bad, of course i could see it getting bad, but i would think they would drown in that environment. what should i do if i see them spread, never heard of this.....

devilvenom · #20 (**permalink**) Jun-01-2009, 01:17

.....................

devilvenom · #21 (**permalink**) Jun-01-2009, 01:18

...................

devilvenom · #22 (**permalink**) Jun-01-2009, 01:20

.....................

Daddynobucks · #23 (**permalink**) Jun-01-2009, 12:21

oh yes they will spread like wildfire

use go-knats in your nuit solution,don't know if it totally kills them but it sure knocks em back, it says you can run it all the time. it does smell like cedar oil tho
is there anything else that works??

devilvenom · #24 (**permalink**) Jun-01-2009, 23:17

left the fucking pump unplugged again, idiot

lost 10 and effected my outcome for sure, shit shit shit, it never fucking ends.

Farmer Rich · #25 (**permalink**) Jun-03-2009, 11:33

I'm also trying a Aeroponic/NFT setup based on the article in June HTs. I currently have a 12 site veg system running and things appear to be going well. The one thing you may want to check into is using 35% H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide) in your reservoir. With Areoponics, you have a perfect 100% RH environment in the root zone and with if reservoir temps get over 72 deg, the odds for root rot increase in a big way. Using H202 at 1 TBSP per gallon can eliminate this, while increasing the oxygen in the water. If you're using any kind of live microbes, this will kill them, so think about what you're doing with nutes before going to H2O2.

I've also set up my systems to hold a bit of water in the channel in the event of a pump failure. The day I plugged the system in, I'd daisy chained a power strip off another and popped the breaker when the AC kicked in. The plants were without pump for about 8 hours and survived just fine. I pretty much felt like a dumbass after that one though..

Peace, Farmer Rich

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