'Tis the season to place seed orders - (fa la la la la...)

US mail is so very busy between now and Dec. 20th that I've found it an excellent time to order items you want to keep under the radar. Of course there's an increased chance of packages being lost or delayed as well, but if you're primary concern is detection, order now!

I have some promising Spice of Life/DJ Short "Sweet Tooth #1.1" seeds on order from Hemp Depot. These are a special release cross between SoL's Sweet Pink Grapefruit and DJ's Blueberry. I love it when we all work together!

I've got a new bubbler hydro system in the works. 4 plant. I use 1 clamp lamp with reflector per plant. I start with floros and switch to clear incandescents or MH along the way. This allows for individual attention to each plant's needs, and helps to keep them compact, as each has it's own light directly aimed at it. It's also pretty damned cheap!

I have a nice closet prepped... White walls, about 4' wide, 3' deep, 8' high. Grounded timer with a power strip attached, lights and fan. Air pump goes in a second socket.

I know that A + B nutes are in favor, but to start off, I'm going to give an all-in-one a whirl: Dyna-Gro. I've seen others successful results with this product (In fact, I think someone used it who posted a journal on here? I'll have to check and link if I find it).

I may still to a test-run with baggie seeds, now germinating between paper towels in a Jiffy Propagator (lid lined with foil to keep dark), sitting on a heating pad.

Any input is welcome, and once I have things rolling (well, not rolling... oh, you know) I'll get some pix up.

Think Green!

WHAT ARE THE PRICES

I'm not selling anything... I am simply suggesting that this is a good time to place orders for seeds and such and have them go unnoticed.

If you're looking for seeds, I like Hemp Depot. Prices range from about $30/10 seeds on up to about $365/10.

If you're looking for a hydro system, try eBay - You can get a decent bubbler system for under $40.

If you're looking for weed, grow your own, Brother! *wink*

Never, ever use incandescant bulbs for growing plants. Use a CFL instead. I don't know maybe you made a typing mistake but incandescants suck for growing plants and will NOT ever work. Besides, CFL are even cheaper in the long run that incandescants so why would anyone in their right mind want to use them.

4 plants in one container you mean? Hope it's a big one

I think the idea of the 1 clamp lamp CFL per plant is a decent one. If I'd have a couple of those I'd have used them instead of my old 4 ft shop light buring 80 watts and only a fraction of it hitting my 2 lil plants.

I believe what I'll wind up doing is putting them under HPS with hortilux (increased blue spectrum) light after another week or so.

MisterE-

*chuckle* Yep, it's a 4-hole bubbler tub, 10 gallon resevoir.

(see photo)

I'd love to hear an update on how your lighting works out - Experience beats all. *grin*


Perp -

I have had success in the past with incandescents during the flowering phase. At that point, the plants need red & far red light, and CFLs do provide some, but not as much. Hell, even good ol' Mr. Sunshine doesn't provide as much red as incandescents do!


CFLs are great for veg - They provide much blue and green spectrum, blue being what plants need most in veg. For flowering, I usually rotate the CFLs and the incandescents to provide a close-to-full-spectrum. I definitely give them more incandescent though - I've found that giving them lots of CFL in flower adds to their sprawling growth more than to their bud size. Your buds want lots of that red toward the end...

But perhaps I'll experiment with this batch since each plant has its own lamp. I could leave one on CFL throughout, and show y'all pix of the difference, if any. Test out that "anyone in their right mind" theory of yours. *smirk*

Attached Images

	bubbler.jpg (14.8 KB, 107 views)
	lighting spectra.gif (20.1 KB, 66 views)

On Dyna-Gro:

http://boards.cannabis.com/showthrea...gro#post478337

http://boards.cannabis.com/showthrea...gro#post276875


On Clamp Lamps:


http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/...5--656910.aspx

On light waves favored during flowering (7th paragraph):

http://www.rexresearch.com/hhusb/hh4bot.htm#HH48

More on favored flowering wavelenghts (under HPS Light):

http://www.bestgrowlights.com/site/403863/page/69077


Incandescents provide that red & far red that you'd get from HPS, but without as much heat and at a lower cost (bulb and electricity).

FYI - My whole set-up* cost about $125, including:

~4 plant tub
~net pots
~rockwool
~nutes
~air pump
~air stones & line
~Hydrotron
~8 oz. Dyna-Gro nutrients

(all of the above in one kit for $37 less S&H)

~pH up & down (though you can skimp here and use distilled white vinegar and baking soda
~pH test kit
~4 clamp lamps
~4 CFLs
~4 clear incandescents (get the appliance bulbs)
~grounded timer
~power strip w/ 8' cord
~2 6" fans



My closet is in a bathroom with its own vent, so I shouldn't need an additional one. I had a few of these items already (fans, timer, power strip, extra rockwool), and I may need to get an ionizer if things get smelly, but all-in-all, it's a good, budget start for anyone looking to join the growers!

i would stay away from ebay

__________________
I'm entitled to my opinion, and my opinion is that your not allowed to have an opinion. - George Carlin

We don't have rights, it's just that simple.

The best way to accomplish anything is through education.


Smoke WEEED

Because... ?

If your thoughts are legal worries, I'm thinking that purchasing a hydro system or parts or pH stuff or nutes are not an indication of growing cannabis. For instance, I myself am only growing tomatoes, so any items I ordered from hardware stores, etc. are solely for legal purposes.

Otherwise, what reason(s) to avoid?

I get kick-ass, hard-to-find comics from eBay...

Are you saying here that incandescents are better than the sun for flowering?

Please, do the experiment. Of all the years I've grown and hung around message boards like this one you the first and only person who has championed the use of incandescents. So what if they have "lots of that red", if you want red get a 150W HPS. Its like running 2.5 60W incandescents and you'll get 10 times more bud. Your first crop will pay for the light 5 times over at least. I'm sorry, dude, but IMO you're shooting yourself in the foot.

But, don't take my word for it. From the Marijuana Growers' Handbook (emphasis mine):

Here's another one from http://weedfarmer.com/cannabis/lights.php

So I think it's pretty obvious that incandescents are inferior to flourescents in intensity and efficiency so why would anyone use them? If you want to, go ahead but I know there are better alternatives.

im just sayin u can purchase all you need with out using ebay. They do watch what people buy, and these "hydro" systems are very popular for growing illgal things. Not that any of us do. But they do sell lists of people who buy what to people who may be intreasted. As digital documentions arent really evidence its still points "them" in a direction. DO what u want, it makes no diff to me. But i would most def. just buy a hps, If you want +yeaild + potenc IMO

__________________
I'm entitled to my opinion, and my opinion is that your not allowed to have an opinion. - George Carlin

We don't have rights, it's just that simple.

The best way to accomplish anything is through education.


Smoke WEEED

Are you saying here that incandescents are better than the sun for flowering?

I'm simply saying that incandescents provide relatively more red wavelengths in their spectra than the sun does. Check the graphs - It's science and whatnot. *wink* If I could grow outdoors, I would. The sun is the ultimate all-in-one. But for indoor growing, we have to take the best synthetic options for the plants' needs and for our own purposes.

Please, do the experiment.

I'll tell ya what - If I get the bag seed to sprout, I'll definitely do Plant 1 on solely CFL, and Plant 2 on CFL & incandescent.

I might even do it with the good seeds for the betterment of all grow-kind.

If I have the spare bucks, I'll even do Plant 3 on CFL & HPS.

If I had unlimited funds, I'd also do Plant 4 on MH, Plant 5 on MH & incandescent, Plant 6 on MH & HPS, etc.


So I think it's pretty obvious that incandescents are inferior to flourescents in intensity and efficiency so why would anyone use them?


You ask me: Why would anyone use incandescents over CFL?

ANSWER: For flowering. CLF does not provide as much of the red waves which are proven to be beneficial during flowering.

I ask you: Why not use some incandescents (rather than solely CFL) to give your plants more of the red light they need during flowering and achieve more yield?

I absolutely agree that incandescents are crap for vegetative growth. It's like trying to make a souffle in an Easy Bake Oven. That CFL are more energy-efficient than incandescents is a given. And if you have to choose ONE type of bulb to use throughout, CFL is the way to go. More red than MH, more blue than HPS. (see graphs) I'm certainly not arguing for sole use of incandescents throughout!


All of the info quoted in your post about the effects of red light & heat apply to HPS AND incandescents. They are both used for their red wavelenghts during flowering, because it is proven that red is good for flowering.

HPS does have advantages over incandescent - The bulbs last longer, and are said to be even more energy-efficient than CFL. And in a situation where one bulb serves several plants, and/or the grower is growing a large crop, I expect that HPS has it all over incandescents.

So why would anyone use incandescents over HPS?

For my purposes, with 1 light per plant, 4-plant crop, in a small space, incandescents offer distinct advantages over HPS:

1) They put out less heat, so they can be placed closer to the plants - and, in an enclosed space, they have less effect on the ambient temperature.
2) They can be used in the same fixture as the CFL, so I don't need to buy a HPS-specific fixture, which saves money and allows for easier switching back & forth.
3) They are cheap and easy to get.

Attached Images

	MH spectrum.gif (24.0 KB, 31 views)
	HPS spectrum.gif (24.8 KB, 19 views)
	CFL spectrum.gif (7.2 KB, 26 views)

JackdaWack - You have a point. If one wants to be super-stealthy, refrain from ANY online ordering.

Refrain from posting here, for that matter. *chuckle*

But since the guy was talking prices, I just offered a cheap way to a hydro set-up.

I'm not recommending that anyone take my advice about anything. *grin*

Because you can buy CFL w/ a red spectrum, if you want. They give off LESS heat than incand., cost LESS over the course of their lives, and produce MORE bud.

You're missing the point. "Plants grow and BUD well under them." You don't need to use incandescent.

Do the experiment, one plant w/ CFL, one plant w/ CFL + incand., and one w/ CFL(blue) + CFL(red) and tell me which one does better.

Good luck w/ your grow.

A "red fluorescent" would be preferable to an incandescent.

Does one exist?

I see much out there about "Warm White" fluorescents... Below you will see two graphs of Warm White spectra, and the incandescent spectrum again.

I see a lot of orange and yellow in the Warm Whites, but it looks to me like incandescents still provide much more red.

There are fluorescent agro-tubes that are said to put out strong blue and red, but again, these come at significant cost for bulb + fixture, and their superiority as a source of red is questionable anyway.

So I'm back to the question - Why not use incandescents if they are a better source of red light than even "warm" CFLs provide? Yes, they are less energy efficient. But if it's red light I seek...

Perhaps bad experiences or anecdotes about incandescents have prejudiced you against their use, regardless of their potential value?

Don't be an anti-incandescite! *grin*

Attached Images

	Warm CFL spectrum.jpg (20.2 KB, 18 views)
	warm white spectrum.jpg (12.9 KB, 10 views)
	Incandescent Spectrum.gif (5.7 KB, 7 views)
	Agro Spectrum.gif (29.6 KB, 14 views)

There's no reason for you not to try whatever you want to try obviously

If I had no choices, I would use CFL's until flower time, and then ADD a couple of incandescents. No sooner though, else they'd just stretch.

I believe there are warm CFL's that also are odor neutralizers.

On lights: I do plan to combine CFL and incandescent as per my original plan, unless I decide to go for The Test when I have 4 plants in the system.

None of the baggie seeds I tried this round sprouted. Awww. But I had one seedling from around 8 weeks ago that's been to Hell and back, and it is now vegging happily all by its lonesome in my system.

Seeds from Hemp Depot were shipped out on the 4th... Woohoo!


The Saga of the Seedling Surviver

So this little seedling was doing okay in a Jiffy Pellet on the windowsill, where I had been largely ignoring it, save occasional tap water straight from the faucet, and a bamboo skewer w/ dental floss to stake it, since its stem was so weak.

I decided to relocate it and give it some serious light, and to switch to "rested" tap water. It was happy under its new CFL, but the stem was still so weak (and now 2-3" long), that it was too late to use a fan - it would've just blown the little gal/guy into oblivion.

Here's where I got a case of the stupids - I tried to re-stake it with a straw that was slit down one side (as in to encase the stem), thinking this would provide better long-term support to the weak part, and allow me to use a fan for new growth without the interference of the bamboo skewer.

In my attempt to straw-stake, I pushed the straw into the soil, and inadvertantly severed the seedling from its root system. (DOH!)

Well, this little seedling is a surviver! I trimmed the stem short, and put it into a glass of water, and moved it back to the windowsill - I guess to give it a view while it died. But it did not go gently! It grew a couple new roots. Encouraged, I dipped it into rooting compound, and replanted it in the Jiffy pellet.

Then my bubbler arrived. You know I had to try...

I carefully removed the seedling from the Jiffy, rinsed all the dirt from the roots, and returned it to water (still on the sill) for a day or two while my system got established. The roots grew more than an inch in this time - Likely owing to a decent amount of dark time (roots like), and the residual effects of the rooting hormone.

About a week ago, I carefully pulled open a damp rockwool cube, laid the roots in it, closed it up, and put it into grow rocks in net pot.

This champ is thrilled! Due to uncertainty about how to age a plant that's been thru so much, I started it on light nutes, and then added more yesterday when I noticed some yellowing (N deficiency) in the leaves.

Overnight, the leaves began to green up nicely, and Champ grew 2 new sets of leaves - Literally overnight.

Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised... It is a weed, after all... But I'm proud of the little guy/gal.

The morals of the story are:
1) Don't mess with your seedings too much with your bright (or dim) ideas.
2) Don't give up until your plant does.
3) If you have a plant with a stem so weak/long you're thinking of trashing it, try cutting the stem very short, placing it it water, and seeing if it tries to grow new roots. Champ's stem is now very strong!

You just dont listen do you....why are you wasting time when you have experienced growers telling you that you NEED high intensity lighting like HPS (High Pressure Sodium) and MH (Metal Halide).....
One thing you do need to do is stop with this shit about incadescent bulbs...

>>>>>>>>>>IT DOES'NT WORK<<<<<<<<<<

Also stop with the graphs, im telling you this next part to help you ok.....
You dont just need the red end of the spectrum threwout a plants cycle....you need 2.....one for veg (which is a bluere end of the spectrum for plant growth) & one for flower (which is the red/orange end of the spectrum).
yes... Fluorescents are good for side lighting, recovering clones,recovering adults & newborn seedlings.
Incadescents aren't even good for that!!!

What im saying is that you wont get good growth, you'll just get stretching, minimal foliage, and a 0-10 gram yield....

Think about that man, its your grow, but you dont want to be putting in all that effort for nothing now do you????????
Do some research next time......then execute!

Good luck with your "low" intensity lighting...lol
Peace Out & Happy tokes,
Bliss.

__________________
Disclaimer: I do smoke marijuana, i will forever smoke it, i lead a responsible life and smoking marijuana has never affected my life or anybody around me.
My post's are 100% true.*And anti-smoking organizations can drink a tall glass of shut the fuck up.

Okay, Grumpleberry Crankypants - Allow me to respond:

This is my first hydro grow, not my first grow.

Seems to me the main "Experienced Grower" participating in this thread has been pro-CFL, not staunchly pro-high-intensity.

I'm happy to get constructive input, but baffled as to why you're so ornery about my choices. It's not as though I've even suggested that anyone follow suit...

I'm also curious as to how you know I'll get poor growth, "stretching, minimal foliage, and a 0-10 gram yield"... Have you employed these same methods with said result? Or are you, perhaps, just regurgitating what you've read/heard?

People have been growing indoors for much longer than all of the high-intensity options have been readily available on the market. If my lighting gives my plants the wattage and wavelenghts they need to thrive, I'm pretty sure they don't care what kind of bulbs I'm using. And I certainly don't know why you do!

So Darlin'... Use HPS, use MH, use a lava lamp - I don't care. I'm simply describing my set-up & reasoning, and, obviously, my research about plants & spectra. I've added graphs to concisely explain the science behind my choices. And I'lll report on my results for anyone who is interested, but it isn't required reading, so if it gets you agitated, just pick another thread to read. Click, click.

Payment sent on 11/27, received on 12/4, seeds arrived just as ordered on 12/8.

OK lets just say from my very first ever grow, i thought i could use incadescent bulbs also....then i moved to fluoro's, then to HPS....now i still have my HPS and would never go back.....so guess you could say its from personal experience......once again....goodluck with it!!!

__________________
Disclaimer: I do smoke marijuana, i will forever smoke it, i lead a responsible life and smoking marijuana has never affected my life or anybody around me.
My post's are 100% true.*And anti-smoking organizations can drink a tall glass of shut the fuck up.

just stopping by...but are you actually considering using incandescent bulbs? you do realize they will not work. Sure your plant will live. No you wont get any bud. CFLs do work, in fact they can work quite well and they are offered in the red flowering spectrum(apprx 3000k) and blue veg (approx 6000k). The problem is...they are CFLs. They work GREAT when they are around 1-2" from the canopy. The problem unless you have massive side lighting...the lumens will dissapate so quickly that you wont be penetrating worth a dam. Sure some wide and low LST plants could get some good yields. Hell...Ive now seen people pull 2-3 ounces from a CFL plant. The thing is, they had one plant and only one plant. They had a small tiny closet and they had issues with ventillation and heat so an HID wasnt a viable choice.

That being said, if your growing hydro with more then one or two plants, your just holding yourself back without an HID. An HID will have vastly superior penetration, you will only need one light instead of 12 of them, and youll just get far superior growth in shorter time. Like a said, CFLs can produce but you really should only employee them in my opinion if your in a freakin dorm room or something with no space.

If your doing hydro, you have space for it and detection cant be a big deal, so that means you probably have the space for an HID and some proper ventillation. If your completely against the thought of an HPS light, then scrap the CFLs and purchase some real fluros like some T5 HO. The T5 will have more wattage over a larger area with more lumens. I havent read your thread so I am just jumping in.

However, I will end my stoned rant (just tried some of my purple, its out of this world, grown under HID might I ad) with this. If you plan on getting high yields with CFL, unless you have already grown successfully indoors already I wouldnt expect much. Some noobies can get some great yields first time around with HID, but Ive never seen someone without grow experience grow with CFLs and come out well.

Oh what I really wanted to mention is that while some people can pull 1-3 ounces off a CFL plant, in the time it took them to veg and flower (a long time with cfls), I could have nearly 2 cycles finished (since I barely veg and use HIDs) and I would end up with more.