Hey Horse,

I tried to warn you, if Weez came over here to help you.....

we'd all start to hang out on your porch.

He's only right ya know.
We're an un-ruly lot.

Aloha.
Weeze

Lemme get this disclaimer out of the way.
Notice:
This lizard is not an expert at anything but loafing.
I don't have "the one true way" . I'm just an old fart who has plenty of time to think about things and a budget that mothers my need to cobble together my own lights.

Betta buy stock in odor sock!
When da U Foe floggers see dis
an start addin' da missing wavelength to warm lights...
We gonna be bazillionaires, brah!

Maybe it would be easier to simply move to South America, that way at least you could become a Brazilionaire.

This whole home grow thing is taking a lot of time in educating myself in so many aspects and accumulating things that simply aren’t available easily. I have assembled a PC board or two in the past. Maybe when the learning curve falls off and I have more time (and the 3 of you are willing) you can guide me through a supplemental panel to add the missing spectrum/s to the ufo’s that I’m starting with.

Adios,
Paniolo Guy

The three of you are welcome on my porch anytime…..and by the way, SoCal was a typo I really meant South Carolina.

Happy trails podner.
Da 'zard

IMO, FWIW, messing around with low-power panels, even with an eye to modify them, is gonna lock you into obsolescence. The "infrastructure" of the devices won't support more effective components. You're gonna wind up replacing the entire thing, one system at a time.

Led light only got three parts:
1. leds
2. framework / heatsink / place to mount the leds (generally needs a small fan)
3. driver (power supply + current control or variation of that theme)

Better to get a honkin' big chunka heatsink and attach good leds to it, either with thermal epoxy or paste and screws. I'm thinking 1W leds on stars/MCPCB's minimum. That way, if something better comes out, you wanna add more emitters or extra colors, jes' stick 'em on dere.

And for anyone with heat issues, having the led drivers separate from the lamp itself keeps some heat outta the grow area. That's a considerable advantage to an all-in-one unit like a Procyon or UFO.

The advantage of buying a cheapy UFO is: dem guys buy their parts in quantities of bazzionlots so get the deep discount. Cost us double to build.

So if you can make a pre-built UFO work well for you as it comes outta the box, go for it! We can't build 'em that cheap. But as soon as ya start tryin' to soup 'em up, you're gonna wish you had started with beefy, chunky, 1950's America-style quality!

I'd hold off on a humidifier. Remember, there is an energy cost to the change of state from liquid to gas. (This is why fat girls feel more comfortable when they sweat.) Fortunately, You can pay that cost in unwanted heat energy. A simple and dangerous way to do this would be to just set a pan of water on a heat sink. (Don't do it that way, though.)

But think about your setup. There's a humidifier lurking there somewhere. Evaporation from the soil and transpiration of the plants is gonna contribute as well. Depending on your rate of air exchange, you may hafta humidify lotsa air for it to make a real difference.

Vented hoods work well. The glass does filter some light; some have removeable glass for use as a simple reflector as well. There are some folks who've done variable ducting so they can divert heated air to cold living areas in winter, or just dump it outside in the summer. Big topic there. Depends on lotsa specifics. And lotsa variables. Importance of proper ventilation / circulation is hard to over-emphasize.

Contractors!!!!!!!

The contractor just left. But after a lot of measuring, head scratching, and some language that I can’t repeat…..I think maybe he was Slovakian……he informed me that there was room on the porch for three of us OR one Hawaiian. To make the porch big enough for three of us AND one Hawaiian would run about $12,000 plus another 2 grand for plans, permits, and engineering. I of coarse said “What the hell, let’s do it”
He said that he would start in the morning and could probably complete the project by May 2012. I think I got a good deal, I expected it to run $15,000 minimum.
The good news is that I saved $10 on the ufo’s.

I started some indica seed from a 1000 plant grow that would have been big local news, but then, they never got caught. The seed has been in a freezer for 25 years…..36 hrs in a paper towel and Viola 100% germ and crack….amazing!
So in about 90 days I have to figure out how to use them (ufo's)…..anybody interested in schooling a Newb?

I was just thinking about the spectrum not supplied by the ufo that I bought, it’s red is completely 630nm. I imagined that the missing spectrum that the WeeZard mentioned was probably the 660nm red and that could be added with a bulb from HidHut. And no Hermie if I understood you I had no intention of altering the ufo’s, I was simply thinking about playing with a totally separate home built panel adding the 660nm and…….??? If you’re willing to go into more detail about all that blue that you’re using……You would find me a willing listener.

Adios,
Paniolo guy.

Get that porch expanded, homie. Me 'n' the "boys" are headed over!

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Let’s see.... 3 plus the WeeZard plus the Village people. I better call that contractor back and renegotiate for an even bigger porch.

I know that the three of you are Led guys. I can tell by sooo many indicators that you’re pretty bright guys. (I’ve followed some of your other blogs) Many times pretty bright guys are interested as long as the learning curve is high and interest begins to wane with the whole host of Newb questions arise. I hope that you’ll stay with me for a while longer, even though I’m a Newb… I would still honor your input.

Hermie, I’ve followed some of your other stuff and it’s quite apparent to me that without more time and a concentrated effort that there’s no way in hell that I could “keep up”…..maybe in the winter. WeeZard you too and Oldmac

Another thing that I learned is that if I ask too many questions at a time, then some get overlooked. So here’s today’s one.
It’s a Scrog DWC. If I imagine a 2 week veg and an 8 week flower how high would I expect the grow to end up (soil to tip). I ask this because I wouldn’t imagine it to get too high. If so I could start it higher off the floor to make it easier to work under the screen.

Thanks, Village people!

it all depends on your enviromental factors. lighting, nutes, strain etc, etc. why not grow a plant in your setup and see what it does in those two weeks. keep in mind that it will double to triple in size during flower.


-shake

__________________
"happy trees"

troubleshooting form

"some of my sweets be tight and some of my sweets be fucked up, but all of my sweets gon' blow so killa smoke gets sucked up..." -Bun B

"But, when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security." -Deceleration of Independence

Shake, during the last 2-3 weeks 'Zard and I have been learning how to contol this.

WhiskeyTango noted, early on, that putting his Procyon too close to the plant would make it seem to stop growing.

I've got separate control for red and blue on my homemade light, so I figgered out to slam the plants with blue when you first flip them to 12 / 12. Stopped them in their tracks, stretch-wise. (This is prolly what WT experienced, I'd replicated it with a Procyon after he observed it.)

Thing was, the blue emitters on my homebrew light also made flowers pop like crazy, usually in 5 days. The closer to the emitter, the more pronounced the effect. This'd certainly be helpful if yer trying to determine sex. No big deal to me, jes' got some girlclones so no mystery there.

So, I'm not ready to drop my pants and shoot off rockets over early flower; I'm not sure how that relates to the many other changes the girl's gotta undergo to produce proper meds. But there is definitely a ton of control to be had when you're just manipulating these two spectra.

Weezard then figured out to also reduce red at this point to control.....well, I don't know what he's figured out yet. I'm such a heathen it would never have occurred to me to hit the plants with less than full power at at least one spectrum. But during early flower, individual red and blue control (sometimes not running "full power") lets you really manipulate things like stretch (and rate (and location!) of floral development).

One thing we both seemed to notice (W., correct me if I'm misstating this) was that once you've got enough blue, for whatever developmental stage you're in, additional blue is ignored (sort of). So why waste watts / heat?

Well, I'm rambling a bit here, but I'm comfortable claiming I can hold down stretch to 25% pretty easily. 20" veg plant in, 25" buds out--in that range. At least with this strain, WTF it is.

Horseman, we're all noobs at some aspect of this. I can't answer your DWC question very well, because I am just now getting meters and stuff to try it for the first time. Maybe you can help me out when the time comes. I'll try and get back to pick up your earlier questions, there are good ones. Sometimes the board moves fast, and the real world occupies me sometimes, too. Don't mean to ignore ya.


Possibly a better way to approach this question is to ask yourself at what height you would like to finish your plants. You can have a degree of control over this.

The screen's certainly gonna set the upper limit, unless you're counting horizontal growth along it. Maybe (again) I'm missing something. I mean, your plants will grow as high as the screen, right?....is this a trick question?

thanks for the info dreaded. good stuff! i have been following along with you guys but must have missed that info that you just gave me (if it was posted somehwere). i've only been delved into this hobby since last october so i'm a noob still. yes i have come a long way but i still have infinite knowledge to gain.

and this LED talk makes my head hurt sometimes. lol. i do appreciate you guys and all that you do and share. and i do my best to share what i know and what experience that i have gained. one day i hope to be on the cutting edge like you guys. i've got a few ideas up my sleeve. thanks again.

that's exaclty what i was thinking about the screen too. worst case scenario you can make an adjustable one so you won't get stuck on a predetermined height?

horseman, don't let the noob thing stand in your way. there is only one way to not be a noob anymore (although like dreaded said we are all noobs at some aspect of this).

all of you guys rock!


-shake

__________________
"happy trees"

troubleshooting form

"some of my sweets be tight and some of my sweets be fucked up, but all of my sweets gon' blow so killa smoke gets sucked up..." -Bun B

"But, when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security." -Deceleration of Independence

searching for more ????'s....

Oldmac's suggestion above is not to be discounted. I wouldn't worry too much about not being able to sweep the entire length of the grow as the good rails have a timer for how long your lights dwell at the end of each pass. A huge advantage to this scheme which I forgot to mention is: less lights = less heat, less $$, less electrical usage.

Don't sweat it. Procyon's use 630's and they work fine for flower (Check the SnS thread). It's starting to look to me as though individual controls for blue and red might make more difference than 630 vs. 660 or 445 vs. 470. (Just a hunch at this point, don't base any designs or large purchases on my .)

I'm getting better results reducing blue than adding red sometimes. The $50 Hidhut bulb seems to spec out at roughly the "oomph" of just two of the reds in a Procyon, (in which there are 40, albeit a different wavelength). You're gonna need quite a few of those bubs to get noticed, I think. Again,

Sorry, I my brain just saw two terms: "panel" and "pc boards." I just pictured some poor schmuck diligently soldering 50,000 5mm leds into an impotent red blanket that's gotta be touching the plants for 'em to even notice it's there. Solder fumes (lead) stay in your body a long time. I try to limit my exposure by using big-ass leds.

My original led light design was a "photon enema" of 4. 15W 660's on a long, narrow finned heatsink so I could slide it in where needed. That still makes sense to me. Building a low-power panel doesn't. I think warehouses are gonna be dumping those cheaper than we can build 'em.

Not much to tell. Just using 2 Ledengin 15W. blues (with 6 reds; 8 may prove a better ratio for me) on a big heatsink. Would Royal Blues be better? Maybe. The fact that they're on their own driver (as are the reds; they're on 2 separate drivers) lets me effectively change the ratio to whatever I want. That's where the fun starts.

"I imagined that the missing spectrum that the WeeZard mentioned was probably the 660nm red and that could be added with a bulb from HidHut."

Thought that you missed that one, P. G.

The missing spectrum comment was an extension of Hermie's excellent joke about the "missing spectrum" being ALBACORE TUNA.

That's how we gonna get rich, buyin' stock in odor sock.
When folks all start addin' tuna to hot lights
Bazillions I tells ya.

Yours in jest.
W.Z.

__________________
Plants do things for a reason.....they don't just decide one day to get root rot or act funny..... - Weedhound
"Their perception is their reality" - Irydyum

"Gotta keep in mind that people and pot plants are very much alike, how well and when you finish is based on genetics. - O. M.

My attitude? Deliberate Indifference! -Thanks D.H.

http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-pro...anted-one.html

Well that sure is a flurry of input……I can’t say how much I appreciate the energy to be thorough. Makes me hungry for some strange reason…..think I’ll have me a can o’ dat 660nm Albacore. Anybody know the wavelength of cold beer?

It seems like good scientific experiments changing only one variable are so plentiful that the possibility of completing them in a lifetime isn’t even imaginable…….especially starting so late. The first goal is to gather enough information for a successful first grow. The trick will be to keep the imagination in check.

The screen's certainly gonna set the upper limit, unless you're counting horizontal growth along it. Maybe (again) I'm missing something. I mean, your plants will grow as high as the screen, right?....is this a trick question?
Hermie, I guess that from the blogs that I’ve read and the accompanying pictures, I’d imagined that the veg part of the scrog happened for the large part under the screen and the flower portion happened through and above the screen.
I know that my height request is unanswerable due to so many variables, and that the ultimate height is something to which I can assert control, here I’m just looking for ballparks. My lower back tells me to bring it up off the floor. The ceiling is 7’6” so I can only guess that there will be room to play.

Jes' be careful what else (gnat eggs, mold spores, underweight grounghogs, etc.) your intake is pulling into your grow. Filtration may be wise. A closed system may be wiser, if you can manage it.
The possibility of problems of pulling air from below has occurred to me. It’s been bone dry as long as I’ve been here. I did screen with window screen. I had only planned on opening it as little as necessary. How fine a filter would you think?

Oldmac's suggestion above is not to be discounted. I wouldn't worry too much about not being able to sweep the entire length of the grow as the good rails have a timer for how long your lights dwell at the end of each pass. A huge advantage to this scheme which I forgot to mention is: less lights = less heat, less $$, less electrical usage.
The idea of a mover has been abandoned…..for now……as I haven’t found one to fit the application and ordered three light to accommodate. The energy and heat I hope to manage by my selection of LED-HID-LED. It’s all guesswork for me as I have no experience…….wish me luck!

Bazillions I tells ya.
Let’s hope not. In Zimbabwe there are a whole lot of very poor Bazillionaires.

Another topic that has begun to interest me is harvesting and it’s timing. My neighbor will soon be getting her patient status and isn’t fond of one hit couchlock, and will be seeking custom pharmaceuticals. I’ll definitely be harvesting (it’s indica) in increments to try to accommodate individual preferences. Any personal knowledge of harvesting in stages and the results would add to the knowledge base.

WeeZard, Glad you’re back…….after that totally insensitive crack I made about Hawaiians, I thought that you might have taken it personally……Ya big lug!

Headshake…..thanks, Welcome.

Gotta go……gotta work on the porch……The contractor turned out to be a homophobe and refused to build for the village people. Whodaf’inthunkit!

Horsemanthinks.

No worries equestrian of the rocking persuasion.
I is jus' a wee t90, itty, bitty, red spotted, blue footed, green 'Zard.
Wee Zard.JPG
Got no offense to take, brah.
No gotta stretch da porch fo' my account.
I jus' as happy chillun on da ceiling.
(Dats where da smoke goes, bro.)

Got too ripped to type fo' a day or three.
Bio assay time ya see.
Dis bud may be to much fo' me.

Hadda put da pipe down fo' a minute.

Not complaining mind you.
Wee 'Zard.

__________________
Plants do things for a reason.....they don't just decide one day to get root rot or act funny..... - Weedhound
"Their perception is their reality" - Irydyum

"Gotta keep in mind that people and pot plants are very much alike, how well and when you finish is based on genetics. - O. M.

My attitude? Deliberate Indifference! -Thanks D.H.

http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-pro...anted-one.html

I’m wondering what the effects would be if the Hid cycled on and off and left the Led,s on throughout the 12 hr cycle. A little heat management…..but then who knows, I’ll know more as things get going whether I have a heat problem or not.

Now that's interesting. The most effective application may be counter-intuitive, though.

Kicking yer HID on "mid-day" creates a thermal profile familiar to us: most intense light and heat at mid-day.

But the plants may like to start and end their day with the enhanced red /IR your HID may provide, a radiation wavelength profile that they're familiar with. That'd be interesting to play with, especially from a "martian nights" perspective.

Let’s imagine an ebb & flow……The nutes aren’t there all the time. Ley’s say that the plant is fed three times a day, takes what it needs.....and survives quite nicely until next feeding comes around. Possibly the same could be true for lighting. The 12/12 cycle isn’t broken because the Led’s are still active(possibly a ½ full can of albacore tipping the ufo a little to the inside) Maybe the sun just went behind a tree……I dunno, possibly the portion supplied by the Hid wouldn’t be missed for short periods….stored, and then replaced when available.

Weezard then figured out to also reduce red at this point to control.....well, I don't know what he's figured out yet. I'm such a heathen it would never have occurred to me to hit the plants with less than full power at at least one spectrum. But during early flower, individual red and blue control (sometimes not running "full power") lets you really manipulate things like stretch (and rate (and location!) of floral development).
You and WeeZard are diddling with lighting combinations all the time…..the possibilities are staggering.
Maybe useful for heat management……..and then maybe the missing link…..and then we’ll all be bazillionaires together…….I could live with retiring on the big island.
In any case, it’s only a thought….if I can keep my imagination in check I might ultimately have some success.

So much for today,
Horsemanrests

If nobody responds to this post……no worries…….I’ll just call Vegas, they know the spreads on everything!

While shopping for the “perfect” hood for the HID, it occurred to me that I have no idea how to set the height (light spread) for the ufo’s…..any clues out there?

As always,
Horsemanwonders

It'll be obvious if you turn off the HID.

I plan to do a lux reading vs. height on my knock-off tomorrow.
An da wife wants to know if she can hang out on your porch too.
One beer will last her all night;
DSCF5158.jpg

Aloha,
Weeze

__________________
Plants do things for a reason.....they don't just decide one day to get root rot or act funny..... - Weedhound
"Their perception is their reality" - Irydyum

"Gotta keep in mind that people and pot plants are very much alike, how well and when you finish is based on genetics. - O. M.

My attitude? Deliberate Indifference! -Thanks D.H.

http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-pro...anted-one.html

Thought I'd find you all hangin' out at Horsemans' porch. Looks like it has just enough shade to make it restfull. BTW, shade is the most overlooked, cheap to do energy saver there is!
My house mate and I did a little traveling and spent a few days paying retribution to some indian tribes. Well I paid the compensation, he's an indian and never seems to loose in an indian casino...go figure.

Horseman-

I need to impart this bit of wisdom to you. Whether building LED lights from scratch or putting together lighting from off the shelf stuff, don't underestimate the power of "luck". It is far better to be lucky then good in boff lights and life. The very best performing light I own was the result of a experiment gone bad. It cost me money (bunch of useless diodes) and rework time (don't ever mount LEDs using heat sink epoxy!) but pushed me into a hybred I never intended to build that has worked better then dreamed of and I've not been able to equal.

Weez', very nice Mrs there. You 'zards are cute as buttons!

Hey Hermie, that's a very nice picture, I see you're doing youir own hair now.

And Headshake, I saw you say all that LED reading was making your head hurt...it's suppose too. Keeps all them others "in the dark" saying LEDs don't work.

Hey!!!!!!!!! What's that wet stuff on my head???

You better not be weezin' on my head and tellin' me it's raining out!

I've opened my own combination hair salon and hernia rehab clinic!! I call it "Turn Your Head and Coif!"
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.I was thinking....maybe we could update your look a little, too, Mac? Something with a little patriotic flair should get you some extra attention with the tribes!
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Come on in Mac, you don't need an appointment. We're ready to "curl up and dye" for you!!