I’m in the planning stages of a DWC. It looks like it’s going to be 6 buckets. The grow room is 5 feet wide by 2 ½ feet deep.
I’m contemplating a 250W HID in the center with 1 GrowPanel 45 at each end. Here’s a link for the LED’s led grow lights -Sunshine Systems : The GlowPanel 45 LED Grow Light
I need some heat as I live at altitude and the winters get quite cold and I’m not really interested in supplying supplemental heat just for it’s sake alone. And the summers get above 90 degrees from time to time, so too much heat isn't so good either.
If the LED’s perform anywhere close to as advertised there should be lots of light that can get pretty close.
And opinions as to how the LED’s might perform during veg is also of interest.
Oldmac has just posted a grow using both combined I’ll definitely want his opinion as well as all opinions as to the viability.

Hello Horsemanrocks,

First I looked at your link, I have not seen those panels so it is hard to say much about them. With panels like that, obviously man in China, I would like to know some more specs on the diodes they are using. As to thier claims of equal to 250w hps from 45w, I doubt it. Same goes for claims that UFO's at 90 watts equal 600hps. That is why so many say bad things about LEDs.

You have a rather narrow and long area to deal with, you need to come up with something to get and even distribution of light.

Remember that LEDs don't have the light penetration of HPS, thier effective light drops off faster as distance increase. Sorta why I'm trying to hybred them to T5s, they don't penetrate far either. Sounds strange I know, but really perfect to grow single cola style plants.

Let's see if anybody else has some ideas (HEY WEEZARD), I need to sleep on it.

oldmac I’m quite happy to get your input…WeeZard too if he’s interested.
The reason to question the viability is that the 45watt LED equaling the 250W HID seemed a little bit much for me to believe too. 5 feet wide by 2 ½’ deep is 12 ½ sq feet. A 250W HID in the center with a questionable 250W LED at each end would be a theoretical 750W overall divided by 12.5 sq feet = 60W per sq foot. But then what would it be really, something less I imagine.
The whole thing could be resolved with (2) 250W HID’s side x side, but I’d like the heat and energy savings by combining the two….(HID & LED). After seeing the pictures that you posted of using the two in the same grow I thought that you might have a better idea of what I’d really end up with.
As far as lack of penetration…I figured to SCROG it so that penetration wouldn’t be so much of an issue. And the Jorge Cervantes book leads me to think that the lowered heat values would allow for getting the light closer to the tops.

Yo Horseman,

One of the biggest problems with LEDs is the exaggerated claims made by many who are only looking to make money, and don't really care about what they make.

SCROG is a great indoor growing technique, lots of colas packed in to give a good continous canopy. Plus fewer plants total, which could be a good thing in some legal situations.

Now to your situation;
I like the combination of HPS and LEDs, they should compliment each other well. My first choice would be to combine your 250w HPS with a Procyon 100. I would bolt them close together and mount them on a light rail. This will spread out your light to cover the 5' length easily, plus it spreads the heat of the 250hps around some. Light penertration is so much better since the "angle of attack" of the light to the plant changes constantly, allowing light to hit ares that normally would be shaded with a fixed light. (it's also fun to watch!)
Intial price of the Procyon is higher then some lights (china made) but you're getting proven excellent LEDs (Cree Xlamps).

A less expensive deal would be cheap knockoffs...........
speaking of cheap knockoffs, I'll see if Weezard has 2 cents to spend here.

Yeah, if I want to stay legal I’m limited to 6 (mature) plants.

I guess that what attracted me to my proposed idea was that the two LED’s @ $140 ea would only amount to $280. The Procyon 100 is listed @ $599.

I probably could look further, but even the 4’ light mover from Hydrofarm demands a 1’ clearance on either end netting a 6’ overall space…mine is 5 feet. I’m beginning to imagine that shorter light movers aren’t around because who wants to move light such a small distance. I’m thinking that a spread of fixed lighting may be my only solution.

Procyon 50’s are listed @ $199 ea. With the 250W HID in the center flanked by a pair of Procyon 50’s. The sad thing is that they each draw 4.2 amps. That doesn’t sound like what I’m trying to accomplish.

The Cervantes book gives me the idea that a 250W Hid would cover a spread of 3’ x 3’. If it was closer yet it would only need to cover 2 ½’ x 2 ½’ ( the depth of the flower room) that leaves a 2 ½’ spread (width) to be covered by the 2 LED panels. That’s 15” X 30” for ea LED (they’re more directional, so that may be tough to do) I guess that I’d hoped that even the GrowPanel 45 might pull that off.

I’m fully aware that I’m a cheap bastard….and to compound that I’m also a do it right the first time kind of guy. On top of everything the idea of dumping excess heat is hard for me to swallow. The American way is to want quality, want it cheap, and to have it right now. Woe is me, woe is me!

I thank you again for taking the time to help me think this through.

<Poof>
Someone holler for a tiny gecko's opinion up in here?

Aloha from another cheap bastard HMR.
I'm un-impressed by the growpanels, and with that website.
It's all hyperbole heaven over dere.

Here's a couple pennies.
I think you will do much better with a UFO or so.
They are all over e-bay. 'cause there a chinese company making them to order.
They offer samples for $135.
So, there are some decent ones to be had for about $200 USD.

Addem to a 250W HPS and ya got synergy.
The HPS will provide a little slow fading far red in the evening which, (I think), is all that Leds lack.
That said, be careful. there are some pretty dodgy folks on da bay sellin' "UFO-like" excrement.
Ask them about actual current draw.
You want to hear over 750ma.
They evade, you bail.

Gotta run, but a I have a few more opinions if you are interested.

Aloha,
Wee Zard

__________________
Plants do things for a reason.....they don't just decide one day to get root rot or act funny..... - Weedhound
"Their perception is their reality" - Irydyum

"Gotta keep in mind that people and pot plants are very much alike, how well and when you finish is based on genetics. - O. M.

My attitude? Deliberate Indifference! -Thanks D.H.

http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-pro...anted-one.html

Horseman, the HGL site hasn't been updated in months. If you attempt to order any products directly through that site, you will see either an "out of stock" or "discontinued" notice. Been like that since before I started building my own light. I know this because I was gonna build a couple of 50 watt kits myself, so I started watching to see when I could order. (This was, again, months ago.) Finally got tired of waiting and built from scratch.

Of course I want your opinion/opinions……all of them. I’m not out here asking because I already know the answers. I’ll also take opinions as to a more optimal setup if that’s what you have in mind….I’m only dealing with what I could imagine.

I’m not exactly sure why a watt +/- per led is important, but after reading some of your posts in the past, I’m satisfied that I wouldn’t exactly understand the explanation. Maybe I never was that good…..but my electronics training was when I was a muuccch younger man. But then almost everything (that I can remember) was when I was a much younger man. No need to explain….I’ll simply take your word.

With a 90W LED on either end….it looks like “my future’s so bright, I gotta wear shades” Timbuk3

Lots of options on ebay, there’s even one with the red, blue, and warm white Whoa
It looks like a number of them advertise 1W per. They’re running about $185. Although I do see the value over paying $140 on something useless. Damn that oldmac for making me pay for quality
I will even take a particular sellers name (ebay) if you’re willing to assist in the qualifing.

With 90W of current draw, is the heat comparable. I’d always imagined that it was considerably less….but those cooling vents on the top of the UFO look pretty serious! My electronics background reminds that watts have to equal heat somehow. Si o No

Is there enough blue in a UFO to put up a respectable veg?

Aloha,
Haole Horseman

"I will even take a particular sellers name (ebay) if you’re willing to assist in the qualifing.

Might seem like pimpin'.
They frown on that around here.
But, I'll root about and see what I find.


With 90W of current draw, is the heat comparable. I’d always imagined that it was considerably less….but those cooling vents on the top of the UFO look pretty serious! My electronics background reminds that watts have to equal heat somehow. Si o No

They look serious but they're just 3 small, cheap, muffin fans.
Leds don't radiate heat like incandescent lights or HPS/MH.
That's why we can have the lights right down on the canopy.
LEDs produce heat at the diode junction.
So we have to suck the heat out the back and dispose of it.


Is there enough blue in a UFO to put up a respectable veg?"

There is in the one I have.

Ufo n friend.JPG

I'm quite pleased with it and I have several homebrewed lights to compare it to. Of course vegging is easy, I've vegged under 14 Watts of R n B

Lemme get this disclaimer out of the way.
Notice:
This lizard is not an expert at anything but loafing.
I don't have "the one true way" . I'm just an old fart who has plenty of time to think about things and a budget that mothers my need to cobble together my own lights.


Got to thinking about HPS vs LED budwise, the other day.

Read some feller posit that what was missing from bi-color leds was that useless spike of yellow that sodium generates, so they started adding amber leds.


Hmm, I got a different take on it.
First.
400 Watts of LEDs will produce as much or more bud than 400 Watts of HPS.
Why bother, yah?
My goal is the same yeild with less than half the power consumed.

I don't think adding an amber or warm white emitter here and there will do very much good. (don't shoot, just my opinion)
The other difference from leds is how the lights turn on and off.
The HPS come up gradually, and when they fade to black, they radiate quite a bit of far red light.
Will adding far red at lights out produce fatter, tighter buds?
Ah dunno. But I have a small experiment going to find out.

Meanwhile we are testing some high output 660 nm. led arrays.
So far, I'm impressed.


(How 'bout your light DH?
Had enought time to compare it to your HPS grow yet?)


I used DWC for the last couple of mothers, but have started using coco for the bloomery now that I'll be SOGing many small clones instead of 2 or 3 beeg girls.
I don't have a lot of experience with either method but will offer help where I can.


I like your plan and will pull up a chair.

Weezard

__________________
Plants do things for a reason.....they don't just decide one day to get root rot or act funny..... - Weedhound
"Their perception is their reality" - Irydyum

"Gotta keep in mind that people and pot plants are very much alike, how well and when you finish is based on genetics. - O. M.

My attitude? Deliberate Indifference! -Thanks D.H.

http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-pro...anted-one.html

Might seem like pimpin'.
They frown on that around here.
But, I'll root about and see what I find.
When I ask for your direction…..It ain’t pimpin’. I’m just thinking that your experienced eye might not overlook something that I’m totally unaware of. Besides that….a couple of old guys with “grows” have more important things to be concerned with.

They look serious but they're just 3 small, cheap, muffin fans.
Leds don't radiate heat like incandescent lights or HPS/MH.
That's why we can have the lights right down on the canopy.
LEDs produce heat at the diode junction.
So we have to suck the heat out the back and dispose of it
Ok, the heat is dissipated out the back and not towards the grow…that part I like. But the heat is still created and still needs to be removed. (I never quit….do I). Don’t get me wrong…You be da’ man. If the UFO’s are even close to equal to 600W Hid’s , then I don’t really need that much light. 600 X 2 + 250 1450 watts in 12 ½ sq ft. That’s only 116 watts per sq ft. You can see that I haven’t completely given up on smaller flanking Led’s. If there was a quality Led in the 50W range (at a reasonable price) I’d still be considering that option.
Can you have too much light?

Lemme get this disclaimer out of the way.
Notice:
This lizard is not an expert at anything but loafing.
I don't have "the one true way" . I'm just an old fart who has plenty of time to think about things and a budget that mothers my need to cobble together my own lights.
Are you beginning to think that I have too much time to think also

Will adding far red at lights out produce fatter, tighter buds?
Ah dunno. But I have a small experiment going to find out.
Always interested in the results of a good experiment. I kinda feel that that’s what I’m doing now as the Hid/Led combo doesn’t look much like a popular experiment.

(How 'bout your light DH?
Had enought time to compare it to your HPS grow yet?)
DH…..huh?
Haven’t grown anything beyond garden vegetables yet…..and screwing around with all this minutia I probably never will. LOL

I like your plan and will pull up a chair.
Don’t sit on the edge of your seat….I live rather rurally (kind of like living on the big island) and the accumulation process is oh so slow and painful. But then slow as I am, I am one persistent S.O.B.

Mahalo nui loa
Aloha
Haole Horseman

Hermie,

Thanks for updating me on that, I knew Ryan was getting out of the 5mm business and concnetrating on the hi power Cree's. Did not realize the 50watters where not available yet.

NOTE: The amp draw given for the 50w is a typo, it probably should be .42!

Hey Horseman,

There's nothing wrong with being a cheap bastard, especially in this day and age. I myself have gotten very frugal, since I went broke. The only reason you see me playing with some expensive lights is I bought them when times where much better for me. In fact I had a couple of Porcyons up till a few months ago when a opportunity arose to sell them. Back to a 400w MH for my mom room, which the Procyons did for 1/2 the wattage.

Thought the UFOs might be less expensive. Looking at Ebay I noticed the same prices as Weez, plus with the HPS you don't need to worry about those "tri-bands" one which seem to cost more. Noticed also alot of them now are using 660 reds, and that's a good thing.

"(How 'bout your light DH?
Had enought time to compare it to your HPS grow yet?)
DH…..huh?"

Sorry, that was an aside to DH, (DreadedHermie).
He built an array of 6. 15 W. 660nm. and 2. 15W blue Ledengin emitters and replaced his HPS with it.
It's been in service longer than my new array has.

"But the heat is still created and still needs to be removed. (I never quit….do I). Don’t get me wrong…You be da’ man.

Denied! I be da t90 'zard.
Bein' "da man" is too much like work.

If the UFO’s are even close to equal to 600W Hid’s , then I don’t really need that much light. 600 X 2 + 250 1450 watts in 12 ½ sq ft.

Apples n Oranges, brah.

That’s only 116 watts per sq ft. You can see that I haven’t completely given up on smaller flanking Led’s. If there was a quality Led in the 50W range (at a reasonable price) I’d still be considering that option.

You can DIY a 65W. light from off-the-shelf parts if you wish.
It is easier than it looks.

Can you have too much light?"

Yes!
Noon sun in Hawaii exceeds 91k lux.
At about 91k., (solar spectrum of cuss), photosynthesis stops and plants stop growing.
Kick it up a notch and leaves will "bleach" and reject/reflect all light.
From 2" away the 15W. emitters will give ya white polka-dots on yer top leaves

Now, I'll go rummage about on "da bay", for an honest UFO dealer.
Where'd I put that Diagones lamp? Aha! Here 'tis.

Be back wiki wiki, (with any luck).
Weeze.

__________________
Plants do things for a reason.....they don't just decide one day to get root rot or act funny..... - Weedhound
"Their perception is their reality" - Irydyum

"Gotta keep in mind that people and pot plants are very much alike, how well and when you finish is based on genetics. - O. M.

My attitude? Deliberate Indifference! -Thanks D.H.

http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-pro...anted-one.html

Here's the folks that I ordered from.
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-90W-LED-UFO-Hydroponic-Lamp-Grow-Light-Free-Post_W0QQitemZ220355104480QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_2?hash=item334e300ee0&_trksid=p3286.c0 .m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3 A1%7C240%3A1307%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
Call themselves tinybearshop.
Shipped fast and no shipping charges.
It's a decent copy of the original UFO.
625nm. red but it does veg very well.

Enjoy.
Weeze

Alright I’m back
Damn, someone at the door…..back in a flash.
……………………
Whew, it was only the IRS claiming that I owed them lots of money. I was afraid it might have been the “pimpin’ cops”…..You DON’T want the pimpin’ cops at your door. Don’t worry though WeeZard, I would never rat you out. Your secret is safe with me, but I’m not so sure about oldmac and that dreaded Hermie guy….keep a close eye on those two.

I very much appreciate you looking out for me. I’ll go take a look!

Mahalo nui loa
Aloha
Haole Horseman

Gave me a chuckle dere, paniolo guy.

Mahalo nui,
Wee Zard

But I think he meant it. I just looked at the specs closer, and this is just a populated 12V led harness with no power supply. Ryan was recommending a computer ATX to power the unit. Doesn't say whether any kind of current control is integral in this offering, or whether you have to figger that out fer yerself, or what.

Anyway, if you power it with 4.2 amps at 12 volts, that comes out to 50.4W. Pretty sure that's what he meant.

I've got 4.7A powering 4 x 15W reds @ 10.6V. (calculates) = 49.82 watts. In the ball park, anyway....

But, again, it's a moot point. Ya can't get this item, and I would expect his next offering, if there is one, to use higher powered leds. And if it's a DIY kit, some kinda current control. If you hafta figure that out for yourself you don't need no stinkin' kit!

Looks okay so far. My bagseed grow flourished with the speed of a stalagmite under HPS, so I can only expect the same from leds.

IMG_0929a.jpg

PIC004.jpg

PIC003.jpg

PIC007.jpg

Gorgeous!

No amber leds, no UVb, no supermonsterbudliquidlightbatshitthrivearoonie?
Just a splash of blue light, a metric shitload of deep red and some attention, yah?

Gee golly whiz, Mr. science. Can I try this at home?
Can I , huh?

Impressive!
Weeze

__________________
Plants do things for a reason.....they don't just decide one day to get root rot or act funny..... - Weedhound
"Their perception is their reality" - Irydyum

"Gotta keep in mind that people and pot plants are very much alike, how well and when you finish is based on genetics. - O. M.

My attitude? Deliberate Indifference! -Thanks D.H.

http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-pro...anted-one.html

Hermie…..my local dump has a separate section for electronics. Computer power supplies move through there all the time. I wouldn’t be surprised if it wouldn’t be possible to spirit some away or at worst pay a very small price for them. If you’re interested I’ll look into it.

Hey Hermie,

Thanks for correcting me, again ( I really I'm confused easily) about the 50w mini-pro. When I read the 4.2 amps, I just put 50w against 120v (in my head) and got .42 amps, forgot that it was sans power supply or there's more then one way to get to 50watts.

Really nice pics! Looks like the making of something good.

Yeah Weez,

That's what I need to get also "a metric shitload of far red". (but knowing me I'd want to add some other spectrums)

What looks like a third fan on my lamp is a can of tuna. (It's ballast, moving it around fine-tunes the aim of the light.)

Amber, UV, IR, who needs it??

jenna_jameson_hollywood_tuna_big.jpg

Yikes! Did a little preliminary smoke-test on the items depicted in post #18, resulting in the post above (which seemed to make sense at the time).

This strain will meet my medical needs fine. This bud is far more potent than the bag it came from. Like by a factor of 10-20x stronger, subjectively. Wife and I were bouncing off the walls, and ate everything in the refrigerator. My little snack consisted of canned tuna, yogurt, grape nuts, beer, wine, and an omelette. And I'm pretty sure I broke whatever "rules" there may be regarding what kinda stuff can be used as omelette ingredients, too. And, some poker chips seem to be missing.


Point is, these plants were started under combination 400W HPS and a Procyon 100. When it started getting too hot I replaced the HPS with a home-brewed led light.

So Horseman, I think your plan is sound. My grow space is similar to yours, and a 400W HPS was just too much heat for that small a closet. A 250 should be just right to pound the plants at fairly close range.

If it's chilly and you can open the room up, the HPS will help heat your living area with a cheery glow. When it's warmer, you may have better results decommissioning the HPS in favor of all-LEDs. Depends on your ability to dispose of waste heat.

I also considered light movers, for my long, narrow space. Definitely worth consideration, but for the expense and installation hassle of a mover, I can build an extra light and get direct, full time coverage. If you can acquire a couple good UFO's to flank your 250, you'd be in good shape. Perhaps a third UFO or a Procyon to substitute for the HPS when weather demands it. You could also substitute CFL's or T-5's for the HPS, but even those approaches created too much heat for me in summer.

So as time passes I'm maturing girls that are closer and closer to "All led grown." And they're getting very potent, more so than I was able to do with the HPS, just because of the heat.

And Horseman, thanks for the kind thought, but I've got a backup power supply or two layin' around somewhere. No need to ship that stuff. It's more "green" to acquire electronics surplus locally.

Looks like Tinybearshops’ computer is down…..must be…as they have a problem with answering email. There is another seller with the same UFO with only 3 feedback, 2 of which were purchases, and one was from tinybearshop. Life is long…I’ll work it out.

This whole thing is making me very paranoid. Every time a Ford Fiesta pulls up behind me I have to ditch em’. (That’s what the pimpin’ cops drive in SoCal) With all those radios and Helicopter gunship support and such it takes some hard driving to get clear. I had to drive until dark, ditch the truck and run the last 5 miles through seas of poison ivy and sticker bushes.

Tinybearshop did return an email so I bid on a ufo @ $175….could save $5 who knows. Found a 250W Lumatek advertised, electronic ballast, bulbs, & hood for $150 (he hasn’t returned my call yet)

It’s beginning to warm up in SoCal and I can’t seem to get my grow room over 71 degrees. It draws fresh air from under the house (cooler in summer, warmer in winter) so I’m beginning to feel like this Turkey is gonna fly.

Can’t easily get the humidity above 25% so a small humidifier is in the near future.

Yeah Hermie excess heat is the game. I have an 80 cfm fan in, and yesterday I put in a “future” 4” vent so that it’ll be there if and when needed. Can’t really decide whether I’ll end up needing a vented hood or not…..what’s your opinion?

I’m wondering what the effects would be if the Hid cycled on and off and left the Led,s on throughout the 12 hr cycle. A little heat management…..but then who knows, I’ll know more as things get going whether I have a heat problem or not.

Aloha,
Paniolo Guy

Marketing, that's who.
Whataya, tryin' ta do hoit de ecomony?!

Now you've done it lad!

Betta buy stock in odor sock!
When da U Foe floggers see dis
an start addin' da missing wavelength to warm lights...
We gonna be bazillionaires, brah!

Yer killin' me wit wit,

Weeze

__________________
Plants do things for a reason.....they don't just decide one day to get root rot or act funny..... - Weedhound
"Their perception is their reality" - Irydyum

"Gotta keep in mind that people and pot plants are very much alike, how well and when you finish is based on genetics. - O. M.

My attitude? Deliberate Indifference! -Thanks D.H.

http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-pro...anted-one.html