help needed on final flush
hey guys .. im at the end of flowering my girls.. i have a flushin solution .. it says its designed to asisit in flushin the chemicals in the soil givin a better taste.. i noticed that most of u on here just flush with plain water.. well i have allready started to flush 2 of my girls 1 flush each and i used the flushin solution.. has any1 used a flushing solution that could help me?? should i use it or just plain water?? i really want my bud to taste its best so im unsure as to what will give me the better tasting bud.. flushing with just plain water or flushing with my flushin solution that has been designed to asist in flushin the bad stuff from ur soil to give u a beter tastin crop ?? im askin simply becoz no1 on here seems to use a flushin solution so mabe its not as good as it states.. hopfully some1 can fill me in guys i need ya on this 1.. may my weed taste the bees knees
pps.. im planin on curin my bud as its only for me and my bro.. but a small sample i have cut to smoke early when dry to see wot she smokes like and to see me by .. let ya no what she tastes like when dry
Last edited by mrberrys; Sep-03-2006 at 19:55.
I would suggest flushing for at least two weeks before harvesting or else you will be smoking chems and killing yourself. You don't want that now do you? Take your sample after massively flushing or just wait and take the whole plant at once. A good way to tell if bud is finished is to use a 30x microscope and see if the trichs have turned milky. If so then they are done and ready to harvest.
I've used general hydroponics-florakleen and advanced nutrients-final phase. both work well.
flushing solution works well. Actually alot of guys here do use it...*florakleen removes the salts in 3-4 days, but 2 weeks is OK if you have run the nutes hard, right up to flushing. the other growers you speak of that don't use flushing solution, cut the nitrogen in the middle to end of flowering, then flush...this is noticable when you see fan leaves yellowing and falling off.
*I use florakleen to dissolve all the leftover salts in my equipment and hydroton...In fact, I have my local hydro store sold on the idea too!!!
The whole point is to rid the plant of, or allow the plant to use up, all available nitrogen. This is what makes the plant green and Nitrogen is what makes the plant taste like chitman' Get it?
so to recap...flush with solution or not...It doesn't matter. It is a personal choice...(Oh yeah, you will find organic growers do not use flush solution, and I've found that alot of them claim that they don't even flush)
Anyway. you can cutout or cut way down the amount of nitrogen you are giving them sometime in the middle of 12/12 and after a week, the fan leaves start to yellow and you know that the plants are consuming all the available nitrogen (green) stored internally. does this answer your question? peace latewood
hey they kush07 well most triches have turned cloudy and a few clear so i will flush for 2 weks each plant and hope for the best.. thenks for ur reply brother
Originally Posted by kush07
No, yes...follow the direction's peace. You will like the results of using final phase.
Glad I can help. Hope the grass is good.
Contributed by: vaaran
Submitted: November 15th, 2004
Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality.
The theory of pre harvest flushing is to remove nutrients from the grow medium/root zone. A lack of nutrients creates a deficiency, forcing the plant to translocate and use up its internal nutrient compounds.
Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:
The nutrient uptake process is explained in this faq.
A good read about plant nutrition can be found here.
Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.
The major nutrient uptake processes are:
1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.
2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.
Lecture Notes:, Transport and Nutrition in Plants, Bio 102
The claim only ‘chemical’ ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.
3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.
Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:
Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.
Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.
Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.
Sidwell Friends School » News and Events
You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.
Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:
Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.
The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.
Sirius Systems, Inc.
Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.
1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.
2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.
HORT 201 & 202 Home Page
Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.
Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.
Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.
You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.
Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.
For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.
Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.
University of Missouri Extension Home
Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.
The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.
Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing.
Could you possibly use words the main audience here wouldn't have to Goodle ten ways to Sunday?
Are you in any way connected with thinktanks that my be tryin to shit on us, goilfwend?
My panic level is way reduced as of today (day 4 after my first flush while in grow bags) and I apologize to all who mighta been reading me howlin at the moon for attention in my posts up til now.
My two girls (with suspected potential root rot threat)(in bags) are much ligher in soil moisture weight this morning so I know the roots are workin okay. They will probably want a feeding tomorrow. Please see my long overdue grow log - to be posted late Sunday night.
Meanwhile, i reread the post above mine just now. Didn't mean to be an ass. Just been frustrated from my own lack of preparation.
I also realize that with our persistently high well water pH, I still have to find out if the flush with FloraKleen - soil now at 6.8pH - if I am outta the woods on the other potential prob I had created - namely - nute lock -
And if I want the girls to veg and stretch for say another 3 weeks, under T-5's, then what would be the gentlest NPK ratio for the first new feeding.
I haven't even opened the Technaflora sampler pack I bought all the big names - good guide came with it - but - wondering about how residual the "nute lock" thing can be. Also have unopend bat guano (for tea?) if the timing is right for that now.
Rule of thumb used to be to keep the Nitrogen up during veg. I will be going with 18/6 vs 24/0 for the - geez - I dunno - I could let em grow another 18" in height to fit the grow box horizontal scrog.
Anyway just mostly wanted to say sorry for bein in such a panic.
understood bout all with the translocate biz. Took a lot of pathophysiology in my course of biznes. In some ways plants and humans aren't all that diff in needs to life. We need water, food for energy and metabolism (life) and a way to inspire and expire o2 and/or CO2. and a way to repopulate our species. Sinsemillia equates to a monk i guess..haha
I have a pretty NL girlfriend thats whiting out now that i did the FIM technique. 1st time to FIM and couldn't be more happy w/results.
Nice ref for mobile and immobile nutrients and how to treat and def and pH and other stuff is; "Marijuana Garden Saver, Handbook for healthy plants" written bt J.C. Stitch and edited by the famous Ed Rosenthal...easily gotton via Amazon.com...runs about $12 and worth it! Good pics and easy to read english.