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Thread: Need Help With Wavelength and Spectrum, LED...

  1. #1
    gnx's Avatar
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    Need Help With Wavelength and Spectrum, LED...


    I am interested in having some led units built for myself... I currently use 120 degree 120wtri-band 7.1.1 blue/red/orange. It worked great but Iím ready to upgrade. Thelight coverage I need has to cover both stages of growing for it seems the UFO's dont cover the Vegetation needs. So I would like twounits, one for veg. and the other for flower. So from what Iíve gathered on theinternet and my own trial and error I have put together a request for aspecific LED grow light. 90 degrees 400 pcs x 1w(160l Dimensions: unit size 18.8ĒL x8.3ĒW x2.7ďH .Bridgelux, Creed, Epstar, Edison, and Golden Dragon Led'sonly....7.1.1. ratio- color: Blue- 480nm, 460nm, 440nm, 415nm- White 6500k -IR/730nm and then a separate unit with another mixed ratio for flowering. Both these units will have dimmers and switches to try to be able to simulate our Mothers clock.Please help. Not sure if my veg configuration is at its maximum potential and also I have no definitive spectrums chosen for veg. or flowering... any advice would very much be appreciated. Ihave already made mistakes and canít afford to make another. I look forward tothe help. Thank youÖhttp://boards.cannabis.com/Plant.jpg
    Last edited by gnx; Jul-16-2011 at 05:25.

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  3. #2
    khyberkitsune is offline Banned
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    Blue is out of spec and in poor amount. White is pointless.

    The purpose of an LED grow is to ONLY target the most efficient wavelengths. Different plants will have different requirements. Cannabis has at best determination 7 required specific wavelengths for maximum potential, two in the UV range, two in the blue, two in the red, and one in the IR.

    Your ratio is following old NASA ratios - best advice is to quit following that outdated spec.

    If you can't afford to make mistakes, my honest advice is to quit using LED, pick up an HPS or MH and some good ventilation equipment, and stick with that until you CAN afford to fail again. Go with what's known to work and play around on your own spare cash once it is accrued.

  4. #3
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    ???

    Guess I would like to know if I could benifet using twon different units?One Veg. and one for Flower. Makes sense to me?Pplease help...
    Last edited by gnx; Jul-16-2011 at 18:29.

  5. #4
    khyberkitsune is offline Banned
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    No such thing as a veg/flower light. Light is light is light. Don't fall for marketing. Your only benefit from multiple units is more light and more exposure. You don't need multiple units if you design your light right the first time.

    Protip: Red for flowering and blue for veg is the biggest myth on this planet. I've flowered with near-pure blue light and got equivalent results (and higher THC production.)

  6. #5
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    Question wavelength chart...

    I'm hoping this is the latest wavelngh spectrum chart???
    Last edited by gnx; Jul-19-2011 at 05:03.

  7. #6
    Weezard's Avatar
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    Cool Here's a little better advice, gleaned from hands-on experience.

    You are over-thinking this, sir.

    Just 2 colors will grow superior meds, jus' fine.
    No UV, no IR, no far red, no shotgun rainbow, just red and blue.

    Only 2 colors, with an adjustable ratio, will show you that you, can indeed manipulate cannabis, (growth, height, internode spacing, flower timing), etc., by varying the R:B ratio.
    I do it, in practice, all the time.

    This is my first bud from 2 years ago.
    A one-hit brain liquifier.

    Need Help With Wavelength and Spectrum, LED...-2643.jpg

    2 colors.
    10. 5Watt red 660nm.
    3. 5Watt blue ~460nm.
    From seed.
    That's all you need.

    Listen to the "expert" if you wish.
    Theory is lots of fun.


    But ask for pictures of real world results before you act on their advice, yah?

    I suggest find a competent LED grower who is getting the results you seek, and ask them about the practical application of leds.
    Fer instance;
    Name:  Oldmacs.jpg
Views: 8438
Size:  6.9 KB
    Old Mac uses Theoremes.

    I use home brewed.

    Need Help With Wavelength and Spectrum, LED...-ledlit.jpgNeed Help With Wavelength and Spectrum, LED...-2big.jpg

    This was grown with 52W. of 2 color leds
    Need Help With Wavelength and Spectrum, LED...-pin-up.jpg

    The information is all here, but you will have to dig for it.

    Aloha,
    Weezard.
    Skihigh and bigguy1977 like this.
    Everyt'ing: http://cannabis.com/growing/index.html
    Plants do things for a reason..they don't just decide one day to get root rot or act funny. - Weedhound

    "You have the ability to move 1000 times faster than your plant, but that doesn't mean that you should." - Emilya

  8. #7
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    Thank you very much for that info and support to the medicinal commoner of this interest. I would be looking for directions in having a LED unit built.Could you please tell me what the best approach would be to get optimal specs
    (watts,line control,dimming,etc). I would think the more lumens the more canopy penetration. I notice that when using the 120w UFO 1wx100+ tri-band that the buds on the bottom of a 5ft 10inch Bubba-Kush plant that is close to finish are lame. The room is 4ftx4ftx7ft. The option is there to have the uiti built to anything available on the market. I have searched but so far and not founf anything reputable enough to be cofident in investing in. Please Help.....

  9. #8
    Weezard's Avatar
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    Smile Homework time.

    Sure thing!

    Start here:
    Calling out to Weezard for LED advice

    Then get back to me with questions
    .

    Aloha,
    Weezard
    Everyt'ing: http://cannabis.com/growing/index.html
    Plants do things for a reason..they don't just decide one day to get root rot or act funny. - Weedhound

    "You have the ability to move 1000 times faster than your plant, but that doesn't mean that you should." - Emilya

  10. #9
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    Question My prayers have been answered...

    Weezard! Youíre a God sendÖ I too have been to numerous forums that pertains to our passion for DIY. Honestly thoÖ.I am out of my intelligence perimeter when it comes to LEDís. The funny thing is i grew up in the walls of radio shack literally and I still canít grasp the Lingo. Anyhow, I like a couple other members have been talking to China Mainland through Alibaba.com/ I have found a Reputable Company who will build anything that There Technology will allow. Last time I spoke with them I was using outdated NASA specís for wavelengths and my own ignorance. Now, from this Forum that I humbly respect, I seem to be able to ascertain some true and accurate current info. I will leave the terminology to the engineers so if you could simplify the terms to my level I will appreciate very much so. So with this in mind this is my projected unitís specs. For a room thatís 4ftx4ftx7ft
    1) I am not sure what my total wattage should be? 200w?
    2) I should be able to mimic sunrise and sunset with a dimmer and switches to control the lines which in return should control the intensity, right?
    3) What type of bulbs and are 5w bulbs the way to go? What type should I request to use? Bridge lux,Edison,epstar,cree,etc.
    4) what degree should the lenses for the LEDís be?
    5) Could you tell me what the beneficiary of using 5w bulbs instead 1wx5 is? From what I have read and researched which we both know is lack of information on my part, but it seems 1wx5 would give more lumens than 1x5w.
    6) Red, 660 nm and Blue 460nm are the only wavelengths you need for optimal growing?
    Wezzard, Thank you so much for your interest. I told myself I would not use another UFO again and Iím just about ready to start a new grow, so could you also tell me what the best approach using LEDíS seedlings is. I noticed I has some serious stretching that occurred when using the 90w ufo same spec has my current 120w Ufo tri-band red, 660nm,blue 455nm and orange 630nm with 7.1.1 ratio.
    Overall Iím content with my results but I know there is a lot more to uncover using Digital lighting. Thank you for your attention in this matter of mine
    Last edited by gnx; Jul-20-2011 at 06:14.

  11. #10
    Weezard's Avatar
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    Unhappy Got to this party late.

    Sorry I missed this one GNX.
    Prolly lost a notification in one of the many crashes.
    I'm sure you've sorted it out by now and I'm keen to know what you went with.


    Quote Originally Posted by gnx View Post
    Weezard! Youíre a God sendÖ I too have been to numerous forums that pertains to our passion for DIY. Honestly thoÖ.I am out of my intelligence perimeter when it comes to LEDís. The funny thing is i grew up in the walls of radio shack literally and I still canít grasp the Lingo. Anyhow, I like a couple other members have been talking to China Mainland through Alibaba.com/ I have found a Reputable Company who will build anything that There Technology will allow. Last time I spoke with them I was using outdated NASA specís for wavelengths and my own ignorance. Now, from this Forum that I humbly respect, I seem to be able to ascertain some true and accurate current info. I will leave the terminology to the engineers so if you could simplify the terms to my level I will appreciate very much so. So with this in mind this is my projected unitís specs. For a room thatís 4ftx4ftx7ft
    1) I am not sure what my total wattage should be? 200w?

    Should be enough for some fat buds.

    2) I should be able to mimic sunrise and sunset with a dimmer and switches to control the lines which in return should control the intensity, right?

    Should be.
    Not sure it will make much difference except for the 730nm. deep red.
    Even then, I doubt the ROI is worth the extra complexity.
    I do like the idea of timers kicking in the dimmers.

    3) What type of bulbs and are 5w bulbs the way to go? What type should I request to use? Bridge lux,Edison,epstar,cree,etc.

    Ask KNNA

    4) what degree should the lenses for the LEDís be?

    Depends on the grow area, but I like 90 degree lenses as a compromise.

    5) Could you tell me what the beneficiary of using 5w bulbs instead 1wx5 is? From what I have read and researched which we both know is lack of information on my part, but it seems 1wx5 would give more lumens than 1x5w.

    Quite simply, ease of construction and a point-source effect that increases penetration.
    1W. X 5 is more efficient, because the 1W. emitters are more efficient.
    But, I weighed the cost and difficulty of assembly and decided to spend the electric on the 5W. emitters.
    That and I had tried building arrays from hundreds of 5 mm. leds.
    Then built a 300 LED array from 10 mm. leds.
    It was a bear!
    Added up to a li'l under 15W. all-together.
    So, I solder 2 wires to a 15W. emitter and what's the cost?
    Could be as high as 10% more power use for the same amount of concentrated photons.
    BFD!
    And testing my 56W. light that uses 3W. chips against my 55W light that used 5W. chips. was an eye opener.
    3W chips are more efficient, but the 5W. chips grew bigger bushes!

    That's why I use the even less efficient 15W. Ledengin emitters in my last light.
    It's kicking ass on 3' tall Jack Herrers.
    Grows 'em like a 400W. HPS


    For 150W. array, with 10 mm. leds I would have had to solder >6,000 connections and grow very short plants.

    6) Red, 660 nm and Blue 460nm are the only wavelengths you need for optimal growing?

    So far.

    Weezard, Thank you so much for your interest. I told myself I would not use another UFO again and Iím just about ready to start a new grow, so could you also tell me what the best approach using LEDíS seedlings is. I noticed I has some serious stretching that occurred when using the 90w ufo same spec has my current 120w Ufo tri-band red, 660nm,blue 455nm and orange 630nm with 7.1.1 ratio.

    Best approach?
    More blue!
    7:1 will stretch them to death.
    Your R:B for seedlings should be closer to 3:1.
    More blue = tighter internodes.

    Overall Iím content with my results but I know there is a lot more to uncover using Digital lighting. Thank you for your attention in this matter of mine
    Then go to 5:1 for flowering and you'll be even more content.

    Just passing on what I found effective with Jack Herrer.
    It loves led light. Some strains do not.

    Aloha,
    Weezard
    Everyt'ing: http://cannabis.com/growing/index.html
    Plants do things for a reason..they don't just decide one day to get root rot or act funny. - Weedhound

    "You have the ability to move 1000 times faster than your plant, but that doesn't mean that you should." - Emilya

  12. #11
    Lunatic Lumen is offline Registered
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    great reading,

    I was thinking about purchasing an LED but they are so much $ . what do you think is a realistic price to pay for a 300w?

  13. #12
    Weezard's Avatar
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    That would depend on how much you pay for electricity.

  14. #13
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    Could we re-open this thread? I have some LED spectrum questions and I need some opinions. I am going to build a Ledengine light using their 10w'rs. Red/blue ratio of 3:1 and then adding some warm whites to boost the orange/green wavelengths. Weezard, I've been running into the same twisted weird growth issues with a couple of my strains that don't grow quite right under red/blue light while others love the red/blue only combo. When I put the weird growing strains back under regular white light they straighten out again. The strain in question is DNA Sour Diesel. I'm thinking of building a light with just neutral whites and deep red leds at a 50/50 ratio, or trying my first idea with the warm whites and extra blue 460nm LEDs. The Ledengine warm whites peak at 440nm instead of 460nm so that's why I would add the 460nm to the mix. I just can't decide which to try first. 50/50 Neutral White/Deep Red, or Red/Blue 460 at 3:1 with added Warm Whites that peak at 440nm. Hopefully this thread is still open and I get some responses. Peace!

  15. #14
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    I would save yourself all the trouble and simply buy from the same LED producer as I did.

    You can check my 2 grow logs in my signature to see how they work... Nice buds...

    I'm using the old version of the Pro-Grow 260. There is now a Pro-Grow X5 out now...

    This light looks like it is an animal. l'd love to get my hands on this light !

    The light can be switched between veg and bloom, but I just use both spectrum all the time. Amazing light !
    Second LED grow journal: LED grow NO.2, testing the Pro-Grow 260 and Rhino Seeds Third LED grow journal: http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-gr...k47-autos.html "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." Albert Einstein

  16. #15
    warrior #113 is offline Registered
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    Buying a pre-made LED light is not what I'm after. I'm trying to understand the photosynthesis process and figure out why some strains are not growing quite right under a red/blue only spectrum. Hopefully others will chime in here.
    Last edited by Burnt Toast; Jul-18-2012 at 07:50. Reason: killed link to other cannabis forums

  17. #16
    Weezard's Avatar
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    Cool

    Great link Warrior!

    The Fonz knows what he's on about!
    At least the results of my tinkering seem to support his conclusions.

    What I will suggest to you, is full spectral control.
    Fixed ratio arrays are fine, once you match the ratio to the strain.
    To grow a variety of strains you need to vary the ratio of different wavelengths.
    Got bucks?
    Buy dimmers.
    No can?
    Build pure color arrays and adjust their heights above the canopy to change color ratios.

    Didn't jump right in and kibbutz straight away because I haven't been experimenting much lately.
    Have a friend with a medical condition that will require a large quantity of RSO.
    I'll be in production mode for the next few months.
    No got time to play for a while.

    You lot carry on.
    Fonzerelli has a good handle on this, and the budget to to experiment.
    I'll jus' sit in da back of the class and take notes.

    Mahalo nui,

    Weezard
    Everyt'ing: http://cannabis.com/growing/index.html
    Plants do things for a reason..they don't just decide one day to get root rot or act funny. - Weedhound

    "You have the ability to move 1000 times faster than your plant, but that doesn't mean that you should." - Emilya

  18. #17
    warrior #113 is offline Registered
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weezard View Post
    Great link Warrior!

    The Fonz knows what he's on about!
    At least the results of my tinkering seem to support his conclusions.

    What I will suggest to you, is full spectral control.
    Fixed ratio arrays are fine, once you match the ratio to the strain.
    To grow a variety of strains you need to vary the ratio of different wavelengths.
    Got bucks?
    Buy dimmers.
    No can?
    Build pure color arrays and adjust their heights above the canopy to change color ratios.

    Didn't jump right in and kibbutz straight away because I haven't been experimenting much lately.
    Have a friend with a medical condition that will require a large quantity of RSO.
    I'll be in production mode for the next few months.
    No got time to play for a while.

    You lot carry on.
    Fonzerelli has a good handle on this, and the budget to to experiment.
    I'll jus' sit in da back of the class and take notes.

    Mahalo nui,

    Weezard
    I just want to know if it's worth while to add any green to the spectrum, or to use the white leds. I've read so much that says the green to orange spectrum isn't used and is worthless. I would rather build a bi-spectrum light because of the beauty in simplicity. It also generates such a nice color. If I don't get the bottom of it I may just have to ditch a few strains and keep my favorite one anyway. Just me and my one lady! Aren't we a cute couple?

  19. #18
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    Green is useless as far as I know.

    In fact, it seems you can buy green lights for working in your grow room during the dark period, and it doesn't disturb the flowering process.

    Also, I read somewhere that white were mostly blue anyway, but will make pictures look much more natural. My kessil h350 magenta has ZERO GREEN. All my photos show the "green channel" as pure black in photoshop. The kessil is a quad spectrum (2 red 2 blue)

    I'll know in a few weeks if removing the 600w hps was a good idea.
    "Prohibition...goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to
    control a man's appetite by legislation and makes a crime out of things
    that are not crimes. A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very
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  20. #19
    Weezard's Avatar
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    I wouldn't call green "worthless".
    It's just low efficacy.
    Takes a lot more of it to do the job.

    I just use two wavelengths, red and blue.
    Most strains do quite well with that.

    I have played with other wavelengths, but for energy efficiency, I've settled on 635/660nm. red and 460nm. blue.
    I use a dimmer to vary the ration of red to blue to control morphology.
    2 colors will usually do.
    Try it, I think you will like it.

    If your strains abstain, throw some white light at them to see if they still complain.



    Aloha,
    Weeze
    Everyt'ing: http://cannabis.com/growing/index.html
    Plants do things for a reason..they don't just decide one day to get root rot or act funny. - Weedhound

    "You have the ability to move 1000 times faster than your plant, but that doesn't mean that you should." - Emilya

  21. #20
    warrior #113 is offline Registered
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weezard View Post
    I wouldn't call green "worthless".
    It's just low efficacy.
    Takes a lot more of it to do the job.

    I just use two wavelengths, red and blue.
    Most strains do quite well with that.

    I have played with other wavelengths, but for energy efficiency, I've settled on 635/660nm. red and 460nm. blue.
    I use a dimmer to vary the ration of red to blue to control morphology.
    2 colors will usually do.
    Try it, I think you will like it.

    If your strains abstain, throw some white light at them to see if they still complain.



    Aloha,
    Weeze
    Hey Weez,

    What is your 635 to 660 ratio? As in for every 635nm Led, how many 660nm Leds to you use?

    I just added some 625nm Red to my Led fixture to boost that Quantum Yield theory.

  22. #21
    Weezard's Avatar
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    There might be some pictures on my profile page

    "What is your 635 to 660 ratio?"

    I have the 635s and the 660s on separate arrays.
    I use 4 different arrays for different stages of growth.

    This is my flowering light
    Need Help With Wavelength and Spectrum, LED...-3fan-burnin.jpg
    Uses all 660nm. for the 10 reds and 2 15W blues.
    There's plenty of headroom so dimming the reds can give me more than enough relative blue to control stretch
    Need Help With Wavelength and Spectrum, LED...-2big.jpg
    As you can see, I ran my first flowering with the red turned all the way up.
    This is how I learn.
    Try stuff, an' see what happens.

    (Most folks just call it havin' fun.)


    Want pics of the other units?
    Jus' click on my avatar, then click the more button on my albums.
    Got some in "Let there be light".

    Aglowha


    Weeze

  23. #22
    warrior #113 is offline Registered
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weezard View Post
    "What is your 635 to 660 ratio?"

    I have the 635s and the 660s on separate arrays.
    I use 4 different arrays for different stages of growth.

    This is my flowering light
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	285655
    Uses all 660nm. for the 10 reds and 2 15W blues.
    There's plenty of headroom so dimming the reds can give me more than enough relative blue to control stretch
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2big.JPG 
Views:	515 
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ID:	285656
    As you can see, I ran my first flowering with the red turned all the way up.
    This is how I learn.
    Try stuff, an' see what happens.

    (Most folks just call it havin' fun.)


    Want pics of the other units?
    Jus' click on my avatar, then click the more button on my albums.
    Got some in "Let there be light".

    Aglowha


    Weeze
    All the LED manufacturers are starting to put quite a bit more "white" leds into their "panels." Seems like a waste of money when you can add white with a ceramic metal halide. It seems like the trend of LED panels is going backwards and getting away from the whole red/blue original idea. Have you tried any other strains under your light and gotten as good results as before with just the red and blue combo?

    What strains haven't worked well under your setup? I wonder if they could be trained to like all red and blue and learn to grow well without the white. Seems like a lot of people are under the idea that whites are necessary in a led light. Sure are a lot of mixed opinions out there, make me wonder which are actually tested and which are just people trying to sell their product.

    You've obviously had no complaints about the dual wavelength spectrum, do you still charge the red and blue?

  24. #23
    Weezard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by warrior #113 View Post
    All the LED manufacturers are starting to put quite a bit more "white" leds into their "panels." Seems like a waste of money when you can add white with a ceramic metal halide.

    That was my take on it too.
    If you want white light, CFLs are actually a more cost effective way to get it than LEDs.
    More lumens per watt per buck.

    It seems like the trend of LED panels is going backwards and getting away from the whole red/blue original idea. Have you tried any other strains under your light and gotten as good results as before with just the red and blue combo?

    Yes, I have.
    PokerFace is quite happy in purpleville.
    White Widow loved her some leds.
    Anesthesia, Herijuana, and Humboldt Purple grow well under red and blue too.

    Gainesville Green?
    Not so much.
    However, Gainesville Green was not happy with fluorescent tubes either.
    She wants full sun.




    What strains haven't worked well under your setup? I wonder if they could be trained to like all red and blue and learn to grow well without the white.

    Workin' on that.
    Doin' my best to talk G. G. into playing nice with artificial lights of any kind.


    Seems like a lot of people are under the idea that whites are necessary in a led light. Sure are a lot of mixed opinions out there, make me wonder which are actually tested and which are just people trying to sell their product.

    On that, I lean towards cynical.
    I do know one guy that tests everything, allatime.
    That would be me.
    Can't speak for da rest of 'em.


    You've obviously had no complaints about the dual wavelength spectrum, do you still charge the red and blue?
    Mmmm, now I wouldn't say that.
    There are compromises.
    A few of which I could be prompted to complain about.
    But, yes I still use 2 colors.

    Tried adding CFL white for the balky strains.
    Made no discernible difference.
    Neither did far-red, UVa, and/or UVb.
    It's not a case of missing frequencies.
    Seems to be about intensity.

    I'm just scratching at the surface of all this.
    My personal knowledge and resources are severely limited.
    So, any solid information you can find and share will be put to good use.


    Aloha,
    Weezard
    Everyt'ing: http://cannabis.com/growing/index.html
    Plants do things for a reason..they don't just decide one day to get root rot or act funny. - Weedhound

    "You have the ability to move 1000 times faster than your plant, but that doesn't mean that you should." - Emilya

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