This is a topic I hope everyone can relate. If you are reading this message then you are a conscious human being with the ability to make value judgments.

I was hoping to just get into the minds of all you thinkers out there and how you have come to determine what is good or bad. Basically, everyone has a philosophy - If you decide to rape women and rob banks you still have a philosophy. Obviously this code of ethics is irrational and ultimately leads to some form of suicide; mentally or physically.

How have you come to conclude right from wrong? Jesus, God, Law, TV, yourself?

I could go on for days with this but lets start here...

I try to keep mine very simple. I try to never intentionally hurt anyone. Sometimes you do it unintentionally.

I try to keep mine very complicated. The notion of a standard for objective definitions of "good and bad" implies that there must be some force to define them, a force that is wholly separate from one's self. It would seem that the only obvious form that this insidious force takes shape is in the geographical waves of structure of thought among human beings on earth.

That is, people, as they live their lives, form distinct aesthetic reactions and emotional behaviors associated with their conscious learnings and experiences, and those thoughts form their personal definitions for the polar concepts of right and wrong. Often the events that form these definitions are major points in people's lives, and the schemata they form from them can be intense.

Incidentally, humans live in close quarters, and have a clan structure that beautifully transmits individual communication, thus gifting each person great potential to influence the lives of those around them in weird, abstract ways. After a little time together, groups of people learn to agree with the each others moral aesthetics, on the major points at least. After a while, people don't even notice their agreement, or notice the moral dilemmas inherent to practically every facet of being alive. Some people never notice, from birth to death.

So my definitions of "right" and "wrong" are such.

Right: It is right to act as I feel is right, but only if I have examined it against the climate of moral thought and made a judgment as to it's accuracy upon my even baser aesthetic response to it.

Wrong: It is right to judge wrong as what I feel to conflict (not refute, only conflict) my definition of what is right.

I take a relative standpoint for what is right and wrong. In life, the only truth is the truth you accept to be true, so therefore what is morally right and wrong, or good and evil, can only be what an individual accepts as his personal morals.

When dealing with this issue, I like to think of a little thing Ernest Hemingway used to say, If you feel bad after you do it, its wrong. If you feel good, its not.

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Well, you're on the right track. To understand what is moral you must first ask and understand why man needs a code of values - or morals to begin with.

That is, people, as they live their lives, form distinct aesthetic reactions and emotional behaviors associated with their conscious learnings and experiences, and those thoughts form their personal definitions for the polar concepts of right and wrong. Often the events that form these definitions are major points in people's lives, and the schemata they form from them can be intense.

Sounds like you are describing perception. We see reality, process it, then the produce judgments from those experiences; emotions.

I'll give you all example of what I mean. My standard of morality is life. My life more particular. From when we are born we learn very basic values that we soon realize keep us alive such as water, air, shelter and food. As we grow and our minds become more sophisticated and our values evolve and become more complex: politics, religion, philosophy, language and so on. Again, along with the Objectivist thought, the standard of morality is one's own life: What makes ME happy? What are the values that will shape the course of my life to ensure that I will be productive and successful?

In essence, the code of values, or morality, that you adopt should be the one that is going to most benefit you -- rationally. I use that word because you can go out and con people but that is obviously uncool.

Does anyone disagree with the notion that man should live his life for his own sake and discredit the old religious injunction 'you are your brother's keeper'?

No I do not disagree, I do however feel that our survival depends on our ability to help eachother out, so I think it is important to be aware of the needs of others and help them as best you can...while still keeping your own needs and desires in mind, because those are really the only things that matter.

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I stick by the quote in my sig

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"There's no right, there's no wrong, there's only popular opinion." - 12 Monkeys.
The hemp plant is our perfect symbiote! Down with capitalism, materialism, fascism, war, and superficialness! Long live the biosphere! *Proud offspring of a draft dodger*

Pictures of my first grown buds!

I disagree, though it might seem like I'm contradicting what I said before. I think that although we have no choice but to weigh all our experiences and the moral compass we gain from those experience against our own perception, there is a state of being towards which our cognition is working, one where the ego is founded not in consciousness, but in a far baser and more distributed version of existence.

I think the closest one can get to this existence while still alive is in the form of love, real love, where the "you" in you becomes nothing more than a extension of someone or something else, and conscious thought only retains it's existence to better appreciate the being of the object of your love.

"There's no right, there's no wrong, there's only popular opinion."

So the majority will always prevail against the individual? How can you morally justify?

I think the closest one can get to this existence while still alive is in the form of love, real love, where the "you" in you becomes nothing more than a extension of someone or something else, and conscious thought only retains it's existence to better appreciate the being of the object of your love.

Closest to existence...that fact that are reading these words proves your existence. Please explain that one.

I meant the altered existence of ego-death. My current existence is of course, a given.

Hey, I understand your interest in the subject, I've actually studied and written a paper on individual ethics. I don't mean to be rude, but your first post shows a little what you believe as good. That over there in bold shows you don't really approve of raping women and robbing banks. Truly these things don't tend to lead to suicide, and the few suicides there are of these people are usually because of the large amount of stress society puts on the person because everyone thinks its "wrong". Although I also believe it is wrong, and I am sure many other people do, it still doesn't make it right, always take it with a grain of salt. Everyone is just a product of their youth. We have seen in 30 year studies that people tend act based on their genes as a sort of 60% factor, and upbringing is 40%.

The majority usually creates the system of rules we all must abide by, but it can't always guarantee that those rules are just. But in a dictatorship or similar system, it's a very small group that gets to decide for all the people.... and dictatorships usually don't work too well.

But what I believe is that it's ultimately the individual's choice to decide what is right or wrong. The concept of morality is totally relative to each individual, so really there is no definite right or wrong; it only matters what works best for each single person.

Right and wrong becomes defined once enough individuals agree with each other to make up the majority of the population. Once they have the power to control, they do it, and vote to form laws and punishments based on their similar morals. The minority then has to conform to the mandated moral codes or else face possible punishments for acts that conflict with the majority's rule.


It seems we have infinitesimal punishments for what we might do wrong... but very few special rewards for when we conform to the morals of the majority and do what is right. That's defnitely not a good system to model when raising children, so why use it as a form of government? We need less negative reinforcement and more positive reinforcement in this backwards world that's dominated by overbearing judgemental religious fanatics. Waiting for Heaven is not enough, we need some damned incentives that work now while we're still alive.


It's very trippy to contemplate things like this and then wonder what it'd be like to experience reality as another animal that governs it's life primarily on basic survival instincts.... no complex emotions.

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"There's no right, there's no wrong, there's only popular opinion." - 12 Monkeys.
The hemp plant is our perfect symbiote! Down with capitalism, materialism, fascism, war, and superficialness! Long live the biosphere! *Proud offspring of a draft dodger*

Pictures of my first grown buds!

thanks for stopping in. but, i think you misunderstood me. 'suicide' was used loosely and was a bit extreme. 'suicide' by voluntarily denying reason and going with your animal-like whims. much like a rapist....i wasn't really referring to them any more than that..

Green Destiny.
Right and wrong becomes defined once enough individuals agree with each other to make up the majority of the population. Once they have the power to control, they do it, and vote to form laws and punishments based on their similar morals. The minority then has to conform to the mandated moral codes or else face possible punishments for acts that conflict with the majority's rule.

Ok. Let me use this example: Gay marriage. It is outlawed in many states. Gays in Ca were just recently given the privilege of same-sex marriage. How can you morally justify a group of people voting away an individuals right to life and its derivatives? Another example is cannabis use. Do you feel it is morally right for the majority to decide if we can smoke it?

This is the type of morality I am getting to here. Regardless of what it is, its right only if backed by proper moral standard.

Too bad there's no ultimate referee or judge to tell us all what shall be right and wrong, unless you believe in a deity. Either way, just because we're alive and can contemplate these things doesn't justify our reasons to decide the moral codes for everyone. We just make it all up as we go along, just whatever works to our advantages. Stuff happens, results are produced. Based on our emotional responses we label the actions and results as right or wrong. It also depends on which decision gives the best result for selfish reasons.

Despite what's really right or wrong, people will always push for the judgement that benefits them the most.... or are coerced by ignorance/fear/religion into following another's moral code.

I think it's totally wrong for anyone to force their morals on other people, no matter how good or right it may seem. What's right for one may be wrong for another. That's why I believe there is no right or wrong and it's the popular opinion that rules. I couldn't give the slightest crap about what the majority thinks. For me to be happy it only matters how I think and feel. Making others feel good is just a bonus, but not a requirement. And I do as much as I can to not hurt anyone.

Religious extremists will morally justify anything they do because they claim a divine creator has commanded them to follow the rules or else they'll be punished... and they'll twist logic around to justify their actions as the will of their creator.


It seems that just living harmoniously, or sybiotically with nature is the only right thing to do. The respect and preservation of all life. But when someone decides to do something extremely selfish or violent... ah, what do we do? MUST we do anything at all?

__________________
"There's no right, there's no wrong, there's only popular opinion." - 12 Monkeys.
The hemp plant is our perfect symbiote! Down with capitalism, materialism, fascism, war, and superficialness! Long live the biosphere! *Proud offspring of a draft dodger*

Pictures of my first grown buds!

asd

consciousness is a symptom of spirit (spirit/soul)

right and wrong = good and bad

good can't be defined so easily because I think we only see small parts of the "good" as it exists in separate things we call good. But what thing makes all good things good?

man does no wrong knowingly

man does no wrong knowingly

so when one man steals from another he doesn't know its wrong?

Is it wrong for an atom to steal an electron from another atom? Or to steal a whole atom to bond with to give itself a better existence as a molecule? There's no concept of good and bad in the world of atoms.

We're just a collection of atoms. So is it really wrong for us to steal something else that's just a collection of atoms too?


But, yes, we seem to have free will to choose. Like choosing not to acknowledge posessive ownership of matter. We have no more control over the individual atoms in our bodies than we do for the actions of every person. Chaos is the motivation for bringing order to things. There will always be chaos and perfect order is never attainable. It's an ongoing, changing, evolving struggle. Unless you consider chaos itself to be the perfect order of things...

There's no right or wrong, good or bad; there's only the current -selfish- opinions of what can be observed at each moment by a complex hierarchy of atoms (us) that can contemplate such things.

And my opinion isn't right or wrong. It's just an opinion. Nothing more. <---And that's an opinion too.. <---And that... See it never ends. (oops, another opinion). It's my opinion that it's an opinion. hahahah. At what point does an opinion become fact? How can something abstract like morality be solidly proven beyond any doubt to be factual?

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"There's no right, there's no wrong, there's only popular opinion." - 12 Monkeys.
The hemp plant is our perfect symbiote! Down with capitalism, materialism, fascism, war, and superficialness! Long live the biosphere! *Proud offspring of a draft dodger*

Pictures of my first grown buds!

“Thieves respect property. They merely wish the property to become their property that they may more perfectly respect it.” -G.K. Chesterton

That sounds like a rightness to me.

man does no wrong knowingly

I wish I could believe that one, there are many people that willingly and knowingly do wrong.

[quote][Is it wrong for an atom to steal an electron from another atom? Or to steal a whole atom to bond with to give itself a better existence as a molecule? There's no concept of good and bad in the world of atoms./QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure if I were an atom, and another atom stole one of my electrons, I would be pretty pissed.

I like the way that you think and express your thoughts. I like to think a bit differently in that there will always be chaos, but there, in that chaos, we obtain perfection. As our world is completely controlled by chaos, corrupt leaders, illness everywhere, everyone living without thinking of sustainablity, the natural world seems to be growing to try and adapt to it. There have been new species of birds and other mammals that have appeared near manufacturing plants that actually breath carbon monoxide. Just a little peice of the perfection the world, and probably many other worlds out there, have to offer amidst the chaos.

Also, you are right here, there is really no true good and evil, only positive and negative. Good and evil seem to be our spiritual and in some cases "physical" manifestations of positive and negative. Someone steals your purse? Negative interaction. Since you may have liked the purse and are attached to it, you dub it as evil. And so on.

I think it all Depends on what you see and hear and learn as a child growing up.
Until a couple of years ago I wasn't thinking about how evil the government is
or how the news is feeding us bullshit.
All my life up until then I was told to do what elders said and shit like that.
Like how you shouldn't defy the bible and things like that.
But now that I'm older I have more of a grasp on what's going on around me and around the world.
So I make my own choices and Myself choose between what's wrong or right, Good or bad.
And that's how i think everyone should decide right from wrong is on their own.
Of course while you're young let your parents point out the little things lol.
But then again sometimes that isn't right either which is why things like racism an such still exist.
Sorry if my answer's a little dodgy i'm just not good at explaning things as clear as you smart bastards.

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"Oh that's my new Cologne, Cannabi for men!"