First grow - Help me grow my baby, it's drooping!! - Cannabis Forums Message Boards - Medical Marijuana, Cannabis Club, Dispensary, News

TheWhiteRider · #1 (**permalink**) Sep-08-2008, 22:56

Hey everyone, first grow and having some droopy leaves problems. Please help me cure my baby!! It's my only one!!

indoor or outdoor-Indoor
soil, soilless, coco, aero, or hydroponic-Soil
Soil type/brand-Miracle Grow Moisture Control
SCL-Anything you have added to the soil-Sprinkled some Perlite (the white stuff right?) in the top part of the soil because I thought it might help with overwatering (which I thought was the problem).
Soil or slab runoff pH-6.3-6.4
Water sourceVaries. I started with mineral drinking water (I know....) , then bought some distilled water but read it's acidic. So ended up using half mineral water and half tap water
Source water pH-~6.6
Age of plant-Planted two weeks ago and one day (sprouted in about 2 days).
Type of fertilizer-None as of yet
Lighting source and distance from plant-(3) 20W 6500K CFL's kept ~4-5 in. mostly, but sometimes closer sometimes further away
Air temperature-Started seedling outdoors at ~95 F, after 1 week moved it inside where my A/C runs at ~75. So with the heat of lamps I would say plant sees ~80 F
Air % Relative humidity-Pretty dry weather here, I'd say about 30% RH
Lighting schedule-Started seedling outdoors which was 12/12 for a week, then moved inside at 12/12 for a day, then slowly increased light period to 13/11, then next day to 14/10, then next day to 16/8 and using this eversince
Type of ventilation your room has-Plant is being grown in the room where I sleep where there is a ceiling fan at full blast and A/C vent. I'd say plant gets decent ventilation
I ran a dip test and I came up with these numbers:
(soil runoff from ~6.6 pH water)
Alkanility - 40 KH ppm (before runoff 20)
Hardness 300
Nitrite 0.1-0.2 NO2- ppm mg/L
Nitrate 10 ppm NO3- ppm mg/L

Some background. First round leaves, one of them came out yellow and half dead (I am thinking it's because of MG). But the first set of serrated leaves came out great. Then the next node leaves started coming out a bit more yellow then the first ones but not that yellow. Right before I moved it inside, the same leaves started drooping, then the first node leaves followed (not as bad as the second one though). Now the two next sets of nodes are coming out (symetrically and simultaneously) and are looking a bit yellow also. I watered with a sprayer about twice a day (never actually giving the soil runoff because of the sprayer). So I thought it was overwatering, so I stopped putting water for 1 1/2 day (i usually let the top of the soil dry out in between watering and sink my finger into the soil to see if it needs watering below the surface), but today I came back from work and it still looked droopy. So I flushed it with the same water and went to buy a test kit to give my official report. This was the first time I actually let the water runoff through the bottom holes since I did not use sprayer.

I went today and bought some Superthrive since I heard it can revitilize your plants a bit and make them stronger. I have not applied any yet, so it'd be nice if someone could tell me how much to use for such a young plant.

You can see pictures below. Soil looks really wet because I just flushed.

I am so sorry for the long post, but I'd thought you guys would like a lot of detail. Stinky, please help!!!!!

TheWhiteRider · #2 (**permalink**) Sep-08-2008, 23:05

If anyone does suggest any additives or nutes or anything to add, please bre really specific (brand, where to get, etc.). I live in a small town so my choices may be limited. Also, right now I'm VERY poor.

Thanks in advance for any help and sorry if I am annoying you wity my ridiculous long post. I'm a noob at this...

veggii · #3 (**permalink**) Sep-08-2008, 23:17

you have to be very careful seedlings overwater easily, you could list the available stores in area but a cheap "grow" fert Alaska fish emulsion

Weedhound · #4 (**permalink**) Sep-08-2008, 23:25

My first thought would be with veggi....overwater or perhaps check your soil runoff and make sure its coming out the same way as going in.......whooops....you already did, good for you!!

My vote is for overwater and keep your lights about 6 inches because she's obviously a bit stressed.

Raise tropical fish or something do you? You probably talk Rusy Trichomes language.

Weedhound · #5 (**permalink**) Sep-08-2008, 23:32

Stop using a water spray as it is probably just leaching the leaves out further with that......you can add ST at ONE DROP a gallon for seedlings......warning....will lower ph a bit so check. Water small amounts.....not necessarrily to runoff, just get the medium damp/wet and not have runoff each time...... lots of runoff means you could be flushing the good stuff straight though as I found it from personal experience . Stinky may suggest some sort of foliar spray with nutes but I wouldn't really know how to give instructions for that or even if it's needed because I'm just not knowledgable in enough in soil to say.

If you can spare the $8-10 ish dollar to buy a nice big bag of Happy Frog soil for your plant and it will reward both you and the plant with good soil ph and some good nutes perfect for seedlings along with great growing for quite a while and make your life a lot easier at the same time. A quality soil (MAKE SURE ITS THE RIGHT KIND FOR THE JOB! YOU WANT!) will save you both dollars for extras and give you MANY less headaches with playing around with a lousy soil like Miracle Grow and pay for it self MANY TIMES OVER per grow.

Worth every penny.

veggii · #6 (**permalink**) Sep-08-2008, 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weedhound

If you can spare the $8-10 ish dollar to buy a nice big bag of Happy Frog soil for your plant and it will reward both you and the plant with good soil ph and great growing for quite a while and make your life a lot easier at the same time. A quality soil (MAKE SURE ITS THE RIGHT KIND FOR THE JOB! YOU WANT!) will save you both dollars for extras and give you MANY less headaches with playing around with a lousy soil like Miracle Grow and pay for it self MANY TIMES OVER per grow.

Worth every penny.

LoL everytime I hear someone cry GNATS!!! I know their using MG soil !
I have heard that the Happy Frog Soil Conditioner is Excellent Also !
I used FF/OC this time, but next time I'm going with the Happy Frog

Plant sex

Weedhound · #7 (**permalink**) Sep-08-2008, 23:41

veggie I use Happy Frog initially for my seedlings in 4 inch pots and then go to 1 gal pots and straight FFOF and perlite.....working great for me so far.

veggii · #8 (**permalink**) Sep-08-2008, 23:44

weedhound , have you used the Happy Frog Soil Conditioner ?

Weedhound · #9 (**permalink**) Sep-08-2008, 23:45

I'd probably lose the mineral water as well and go with tap water.....ph correct after adding ONE DROP of ST. And quite frankly......I don't use ST with the Happy Frog or FFOF soils...they don't seem to need anything extra.

Good luck.

Weedhound · #10 (**permalink**) Sep-08-2008, 23:49

No Veggi , I use strictly the Happy Frog soil itself in 4 inchers.....worked great and all sorts of beneficial things in both soils.....another plus. Same with FFOF....no additions; just good tap water at correct ph for soil (about 6.5) and so far its been great. I WAS doing what White R here was doing.......watering too much and just flooding things out and leaving the soil too wet at the same time so I think the problem isa little of both of that in this situation.

I DO use a product called rhizotonic for my roots but its fairly expensive and not a necessary with a quality soil like HF or FFOF imo.

veggii · #11 (**permalink**) Sep-08-2008, 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weedhound

I DO use a product called rhizotonic for my roots but its fairly expensive and not a necessary with a quality soil like FH or FFOF.

I was @ hydro shop the other day and they were saying that product is coming off the market and the 10 bottles they have left is it! better get them while you can they said, they were xpensive I only had $10 so I couldn't get any
just aheadsup maybe stock up on it if you like it

illnillinois · #12 (**permalink**) Sep-09-2008, 00:23

good dirt
proper size container
decent lighting
normal water

let mother nature do the rest
dont feed until at least til min of 5 knode.
l8r

d4twamp · #13 (**permalink**) Sep-09-2008, 01:19

yeah looks a lil to wet

sup ILLn

D

TheWhiteRider · #14 (**permalink**) Sep-09-2008, 07:33

Thanks to all for replies thus far!!

As for the comment of the soil being wet, as I said, yes it's VERY wet because I just flushed. I woke up this morning and the soil is still quite wet, so I will just be patient and let it dry out for a day or two.

I have a few more questions if y'all don't mind:

1) Can I get this Happy Frog Soil in HD or Lowe's? If so, what specific model and #-#-#?

2) Should I try to put some ST in there before trying new soil and see what happens? OR switch directly to Happy Frog (which I don't have money for right now, I really don't but I get paid on Friday)? OR "let mother nature do its thing" and wait for the 5th node?

I'm sorry but everyone suggests different things and I don't know which advice to follow... I am leaning more towards letting it chill a bit like illnillinois said . If it doesn't work in a couple of days and things are getting worst I'll try adding some ST at a drop per gallon (is that enough?, container says 1/4 teaspoon). If that doesn't work then I will switch soils on the baby and take it from there.

I'll keep you guys updated, so please stick around! Thanks so much!!

Any other additional comments are more than welcome.

TheWhiteRider · #15 (**permalink**) Sep-13-2008, 09:26

Here's an update.

I left the plant alone for 2 whole days without watering after that flush. Things were looking a little better, so I decided to give it some more water (I always wait till the top soil is dry and put my finger into the soil to see if it's wet below). Since it wasn't "wet" (rather barely humid) I decided to give it some water with a minuscule amount of SuperThrive (about a drop a gallon).

Then things kept going worst. Now the first node (the round leaves) are completely yellow (which I read it's normal). But the next node (with the first serrated leaves) is now almost completely yellow (except in the part really close to the stem where the leaves get a little shade from the top leaves, it's still a little green). The yellowing of these leaves did not start at a specific point really. They kind of just became yellow all around. But I don't think that's normal because they have the biggest surface area and thus the highest chance for the plant of getting light.

The top node is still growing and it's still coming out, but I want to fix the problem before it gets un-fixable for the top leaves.

At least the top leaves are a little greener than before (BARELY) but are STILL droopy!! WHY??? What am I doing wrong? Do you think it's the MG?

I am worried pH might be too low but have not checked it again since that previous flush. Would soil pH of 6 be too low? If so how do I increase it? What else could it be??

I am going insane!! Please help!!!

TheWhiteRider · #16 (**permalink**) Sep-14-2008, 01:17

Here are updated pics at almost 3 weeks old.

I wanted to ask something that's been on my mind for a while.

I've read that MJ likes to go through wet and dry cycles. But I've also read that you should keep the soil moist at all times. I go by the "wet and dry" method, but I let it be wet for about 2 days and then once the soil is dry I water immediately. Should this be done in equal cycles of "wet" and "dry" periods? So should I let the plant be dry for a couple of days as well or not?

Please someone tell me this.

Thanks all.

PS: Note that I've taken pics right at the watering day yet again. Sorry!

veggii · #17 (**permalink**) Sep-14-2008, 01:32

do like you are "water then wait couple days too dry them then water again plants looking ok 1 drop per gal ST sounds good
youg seedlings are very easy to overwater be patient if it takes 3 days or 4 days thats what it takes, it all depends on conditions in room heat/humidity

light i would buy more light if your that broke instead of the FF/OC soil and no you can't get it at HD/LOWES

TheMetal1 · #18 (**permalink**) Sep-14-2008, 01:35

Looks familiar. It's probably a combination of pH and the MG being too hot for the seedling. In the past, I had to take them out of the pre-fertilized soil and put them in some seedling starter mix. I'm not exactly sure what your next course of action should be... they can pull through, but like I said, in my case I had to do some careful careful transplanting. Prior to that, I just sat there and watched them do absolutely nothing while they stood there in shock.

The first set of leaves, Cotyledons, will usually fall off. They are mostly for that first growth spurt. No biggie.

Cannabis does like a wet/dry cycle... but the time of those periods will vary depending on strain/conditions. You don't really want it to get completely BONE dry... but you want to notice the weight difference between that, and a freshly watered pot. Once you pick it up and go "Woah, that's light" it's time to water

Oh, and I wouldn't really expect any damaged foliage to gain its old luster back. To get an idea as to how the plant is doing currently... focus on the top 1/3 of the plant. Damaged leaves will usually either stay the same... get worse... or just fall off. As long as the plant is growing up and out... you're doing at least 1 thing right

Rusty Trichome · #19 (**permalink**) Sep-14-2008, 08:10

The next time you add perlite, mix it into the soil. Sprinkling it on top does no good.
Miracle Grow soils are a bit hot for seedlings, but just keep in mind it already has nutes. It's good-to-go for about a month before needing to start a regular nute schedule. I used it very sucessfully for years, and the soil I use right now is even hotter.

Ease-up on watering, but don't let it remain dry for more than a day. Don't add nutes or ammendments for a week or two at least, and try to keep from overheating it. You do have a fan on it, right?

TheWhiteRider · #20 (**permalink**) Sep-14-2008, 09:01

Thanks for the feedback all.

Yes, I do have a fan, but just a ceiling fan blowing at full blast all day. Plant gets a small breeze

I think the plant will pull through this rough patch if the new growth is looking good like you've said.

Could someone approve my list of nutes and ammendments to add that I will use in two weeks? I fear this is the hardest part to come.

So far I will get this:

New Soil Mix consisting of:

- 70% Fox Farm Happy Frog Potting Soil (what's the difference with the Ocean Forest FF? should I buy both and mix them together at a certain ratio? Is Happy Frog for vegging and FFOC for flowering? Please explain this)
- 30% Perlite (any vermiculite you think?)

For nutes, I will use:

-FF Big Bloom, Grow Big and Tiger Bloom Trio. I've heard some good things about it. (should I just follow the directions and start at 1/4, then 1/2, then 1?, but at what rate do I do this? Every week is ok? Every watering?)

I will also transplant into bigger pot because I see some roots starting to come out from the bottom holes (YEAAAHH!!)

Allright. I apologize for my noobness and constant questioning of everything. I REALLY want to do this right.

THANKS!

Rusty Trichome · #21 (**permalink**) Sep-14-2008, 09:50

The Fox Farms stuff is pretty good stuff. (it's what I've used for the past few years) Instructions are for weekly application rates. Seedlings get 1/4 strength, a couple of weeks later you can up-it to half strength...but they'll let you know if they want more. You can replace Superthrive with the Big Bloom. No real need for both. Before you purchase all sorts of additives, ammendments and suppliments...get used to using your base nutes. (the Fox Farms stuff) You can go broke very quickly "impulse-shopping" for the little ladies.
A cieling fan may be good for ventilation, but they'll need air circulation (a fan) on them to create a breeze. This strengthens the stem, provides fresh air, and dispurses the heat from the lights.
Still too small for transplant. Give it a few more weeks, unless you're wanting to change soil. If anything, that pot is too big as it is. Very doubtful you are seeing roots out of the bottom yet. Likely they're not even reaching the bottom yet.

Looking back at your troubleshooting form: (sorry, was just waking-up during my last post)

How are you going to flower the plant, if it get's to that point? You'll need to keep light away from them during the dark periods. All night, every night...total darkness. Flowering in a working bedroom is a good way to ruin a grow.

ph is a tad low, but still within the lower-limits. Nutes will pull that number even lower, tho. Learn how to adjust your tap water. Unless the quality is super-crappy, it's a waste to purchase water.

Put the lights about 2 - 4 inches from plant, and leave it there till you need to raise them. Dicking with light intensity can stress a cannabis plant. A thermometer is really a necessity for a newbie. Would get one asap.

For next time...It's a bad idea to take from outdoors, and bringing them indoors. Likely will bring bugs in with 'em. (some bugs leave their eggs in the soil)

Keep them off the floor, and away from direct A/C vent. Too cold, and they start to complain.

That's all I can think of right now, and my legs are falling asleep anyway, lol.

TheWhiteRider · #22 (**permalink**) Sep-14-2008, 21:57

Rust Trichome,

Thank you for such an elaborate reply, it's just what I was looking for.

I will go ahead and get the Fox Farm soil and nutes and start using them once the plant is ready for it. Once I receive the FF nutes I will get rid of the ST.

About the current size of the pot... I chose it because when I started I was not even aware of this forum and had no actual cannabis growing knowledge whatsoever. I realized after reading many posts that the size of the pot IS too big just like you said, and that it's better to transplant 3-4 times. Next time I will do things much more different, such as starting in a 3" pot or cup or something and then transplant appropriately. But I will have to contradict you in the fact that the roots ARE coming out from the bottom (just two in a single hole out of 8). They were very small at the 2 weeks and are now much bigger, but not overflowing. I think the fast root development is due to the MG.

As for the flowering period... I know that they need very strict drakness perios and for this I will put the plant in my room closet (where there is no ventilation, but I think that at night the plant doesn't require as much CO2 as during the day (is this correct or not). I thought plants transpired during the day mostly. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

As for the fan, I will get a new small fan to aim more towards the plant and give it some more fresh air and stem strength development as you suggested.

The A/C vent is not directly blowing towards the plant, it's just right above the plant.

But anyways, thanks for the comments and please stay close to give me some more great advice!!

veggii · #23 (**permalink**) Sep-15-2008, 03:24

hey umm use the happy frog next grow for seedlings and then transplant seedlings into FF/OC soil and follow the FoxFarm nutes schedule after a couple sucsessful grows start looking into advanced nutes/amendments and stuff as things get expensive fast! and you really want to know how too tell whats going on with plants by looking at them a wrong diagnosis can be fatal.
go easy on all nutes etc and flush once a month and be prepared for the emergency flush! you are know a Cannabis EMT ! lol got ph tester? they sell the liquid ones cheap and read stinky's logs! she knows her stuff! keep your grow area clean and sanitized good luck

TheWhiteRider · #24 (**permalink**) Sep-15-2008, 08:03

What's the difference between the Happy Frog Soil and Happy Frog Conditioner?

I thought that using FF/OC in addition with nutes is too hot for the plant? Maybe too hot for vegging but not for flowering?

**stinkyattic** · #25 (**permalink**) Sep-15-2008, 10:27

Too much water
MG soil is too 'hot' for seedlings, and 'moisture control' indoors is not good- it stays too damp.
You MUST run CalMAg Plus when you use distilled water.
Distilled water is not acidic in a way that matters; its ionic strength is incredibly low and the pH reading is irrelevant. Unless your tap water is HORRIBLE, use it.
Don't spray seedlings or any plant with distilled water, and avoid spraying with plain water. This is called 'reverse foliar feeding' and leaches mobile nutes right out of the leaves.

Plan for your flower time... that's a small space.

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