C=Answer if you grow coco
E= EVERYONE needs to answer lol!


E-indoor
E-coco
E-specific medium: coco/perlite
CSL-Soil type/brand: Readygro Moisture formula
SCL-Anything you have added to the soil: none
SCLR-Soil or slab runoff pH: 6.5
E-Water source: Tap
E-Source water pH: originally 7.5-8. PH Down to 6.5
E-Age of plant: 2.5 months
E-Type of fertilizer: Pure Blend Pro (organic)
E-Rate of application: feed once every other week. half dosage
E-Lighting source and distance from plant: HPS now 6"
E-Air temperature:75* lights off, max 80* lights on
E-Air % Relative humidity: 35%
E-Lighting schedule: 12/12 8p.m. to 8a.m.
E-Type of ventilation your room has: in a 2'x2'x4' homebox xs dayton exhaust, inline duct from a/c unit for intake w/4" can fan to boost cold air (it's hot here)
TR-Did you pre-soak your media in pH corrected solution: no


Okay, here's the deal folks. Please keep in mind I'm very new (my first grow) and all products used are recommendations from my local hydro shop, so hopefully he's not as much as a douchebag as he seems:

I have four plants: 3 fems, 1 male. One of the fems is having some strange leaf development. They are almost 2 weeks into flowering (started 6-14-09), the tallest lady started showing some leaf curling in a few of the lower leafs. This after watering with veg nute still.

The only thing I did up untill changing the light from MH to HPS on 6-20-09 was change the light cycle from 18/6 to 12/12. So basically I left the MH in for a week, and gave one more dosage of veg nutes this past Saturday. I also changed to HPS this past Saturday.

The fingers on the leaves are curling in from the edged turning into "tubes". Some were worse than others, but the upper leaves (half way up and up) seem ok. There is some discoloration (yellow-ish) on some of the curled leaves, but some of the curled leaves are still green. It's acting very strangely considering what I put into them. My watering schedule is about once a week...I've read to wait until the pots are dry a few inches down to water, and that's how long they take to get that dry. Every other watering I give half the recommended dosage of nutes. I water with balanced 6.5 water, and the runoff is the same as the input. I have not tested the PPM as I didn't have a tester at the time.

Birthdays are good to me though and my friend got me a Hanna 98129 tester. So being the eager beaver, I tested my tap's PPM and it was almost 600(590-ish). I was using his tester for PH balances previously. He has the pimptastic Hanna tester.

A little history: These plants were started in an Aero Garden and stretched A LOT. Maybe I should've LST'd this particular one. Other than the leaf problem, the plants seem healthy and took to the transition from the Garden to coco pots nicely. Nice thick stalks, longs fingers, etc. Other than this leaf problem there would be no indication that anything is wrong.

Tonight whilst I wait for some saint to reply and lend their expertise, I am going to run 6.0 PH water through them and flush thoroughly. Maybe they're under nourished? I don't quite understand the whole PPM logic yet. Don't know what it's supposed to be, what is too much or too little. I did read around here as much as I could, but could never find a definitive answer to what the plants like best growing in coco.

If pics are needed let me know and I'll snap some tonight.

Thanks in advance for any help everyone. It is very appreciated as I know how long this post is LOL.

****Almost forgot! The guy at my hydro shop said that coco will "assimilate" to what you put into it. So if I add 6.5 PH water, the coco will be 6.5. For shits and giggles I bought a cheapo $10 soil meter just to get some indication of the coco PH, it read between 8-7. Don't know how accurate that is, just thought I would throw it in.

*junk

here too

some pics would help

im not sure but i think 6.5 is a lil high for coco i will check but i think it shuold be a bit lower

have you calibrated your new metr yet?

PHATESH: You're right, it's supposed to be 5.8-6.2. Some of the leaf tips now are taking on all new little twisty curly shapes LOL.

However I've done some MORE research and figured out what my problem is. That is that I'm an idiot. I did so much research on this, but was researching the wrong thing.

I was ASSUMING coco was treated as a soil grow, so I was following guidlines for soil...not coco. Coco, come to find out, is a considered more of a hydro grow and needs to be kept moist. I've been watering once a week, when the medium gets almost dry. Not good for coco. So much of what I was doing wasn't good for coco.

The entire problem is that watering once a week, every other time being a balanced nute formula. Well during that week the nutes dry, solidify, turn to salt, etc. When I water the following week, I only water enough so water just starts to drip. Not really "flushing" the hardened week old nutes out.

Current readings: Input: PH(no nutes) 5.8. PPM 600
Output: PH 5.6. PPM 1200-1400 depending on the plant

I'm no scientist, but I see a problem here.

With the water I had prepared I was able to flush to get them down to a PPM of 900 across the board. I will continue to do massive flushes over the next couple of days to get the PPM down to a reasonable level, once I research more and find out what that is. But from what I've gleaned, I think it's around 300-500?

So sorry for waisting anyone's time, and thank you Phatesh for trying to help me out. That's what I love about this forum, someone doesn't do enough research and STILL gets a helping hand.

Peace
*junk

What size HPS light?..cool tube or reflector glass-inclosed?

6 inches seems very close?

Attached Images

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Did you know there is a feeding schedule available for Botanicare products?

Botanicare Feeding Schedule

Ph stress and underwatering will cause problems in the upper canopy, especially if pushing the limits with nutrition, bulb distance and temps.

__________________
Your disappointments grow in direct proportion to your expectations.
If you are comfortable with your facts, you should assume I'll be comfortable challenging those facts.

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I was thinking bout running coco so ihad some info.

glad we can help, its always a learning experiance good growing.

oh and grow room pics are worth more than you could ever write in any form and are always reccomended for a faster and better and more responses.

Dutch: It's 250w. I will get the water cooled cool tube eventually, I just don't have the 275 to drop in it right now. Probably next cycle. Since this is the tallest of all plants, I went ahead and bent it over and tied it down. My theory there is two fold: One..expose the middle of the plant to more light(it's pretty bare in that area). Second...to get it farther away from the light. Now they're all the same distance from the light: about 10"

Rusty: Ya I just found that last night, but not sure how to interpret the schedule. If I'm reading it correctly, then I should have fed them 25-30ml (almost 2 tablespoons). My confusion is: is that every watering/feeding every day, once a week? dosage per plant: 4 plants would come out to 100-120ml for the whole water formula? Or dosage per total water formula? Also...I have read that it's best to administer half the recommended dosage, does this hold true for coco and organic nutes??

Also, during the "Transition" period, it calls for 15ml of veg 15ml of bloom(which I already have, just haven't administered). So is that the two mixed together? Again, per plant? My watering method is to prepare about 4-5 gallons of water, balance it, and water all plants. I'm preparing more now obviously to continue with the flushes, and once that balances out the PPM, I will resume feeding with bloom. This time keeping the coco hydrated. Please excuse my ignorance or just flat out stupidity in this matter, but looking at the feeding schedule just raises more questions for me. Maybe I'm making it too complicated than it is.

You had mentioned that PH stress and underwatering will cause problems in the upper canopy. Well that's the rub...the upper canopy is fine, the problems are occurring well below the canopy. Does the same philosophy apply? I've been testing my PH for the past three weeks and it SEEMS fine, but my PPM runoff is off the charts. Need to stabilize that and water MUCH more.

I have to search more to find out what good PPM levels are. I have no idea what they should be, but I'll find it. I just know they should be lower than they are, and need to be watering more than I am. Does anyone know how to reduce PPM in tap water??? Mine comes out at 600.


Thanks so much for the replies! I really appreciate everyone taking the time to read my lengthy posts.

*junk

Thank you Phatesh! I totally spaced on taking pics lastnight. I spent so much time and was consumed with the flush I didn't even think about it. I WILL take some tonight and post. Ya this is ALLLL learining for me, but for my first attempt it's going pretty well...of course a lot of that has to do with this forum. I just feel lucky enough to be starting out with 3 fems out of 4 plants.

It's a week-by-week schedule, not day by day. Plain, properly ph'd water inbetween when necessary.

With the schedule, you add everything it says to add for that week, and give it that day. (mixed into water, of course) Don't save it to add more the next day, it will go bad. If in the transition period it says to add something...add it, too. If it doesn't say to add it, don't add it. But until you get used to working with those nutes...one feeding a week.

Although a picture is worth thousand words, it can have a thousand stories. To me, pictures are just another tool. Filling-out the troubleshooting form is still worthwile.

Wish I was good enough at troubleshooting that I could diagnose and suggest a treatment plan, just by looking at a picture. Sure would save me a shitload of time.

__________________
Your disappointments grow in direct proportion to your expectations.
If you are comfortable with your facts, you should assume I'll be comfortable challenging those facts.

Horticultural Myths and Folklore
Fox Farms Feeding Schedule
Dealing With Heat Issues in the Desert
Rusty's Bonsai Re-Vegging
CanCom Troubleshooting Forms

Phatesh: Can I ask why you decided to not go coco?? Thank you for your insight and participation!

Rusty: Got it now. Thanks for the disertation. That answered every question I had on feeding. So my thinking with feeding once a week is to completely flush with the watering preceeding the feeding. That way all the old crap is out, if there was any left. Then next watering, add nutes. The one thing I read is that you can't over water coco with correct drainage.

I'll still post some pics later tonight just so everyone can see what's going on.

Well the cloud is lifting and it's all starting to make sense now. Shit, after I got a 1400 PPM runoff after a 600PPM intake...it all started to make sense there. Everything else I've learned from here just lets me know I've been compounding the issue this whole time.

Thanks again Rusty! I've been following yours, Dutch's, and Stinkys posts a lot and usually always refer to you desert growing guide you posted. As I live in the same area, it's been an invaluable tool.

*junk

when i started growing i couldnt afford all the tools needed to run anything but soil or peat so i refined my techniques around that. as time goes on i like experiment with different mediums and stuff

next run will be superoots pots vs standard for end wieght cause some thing arouse at the end of my last grow i didnt care for so im gonna try something else

oh and the pics are in addition to the form not in lieu of it, sorry about my half ass stoner posts. damn sour d covered in twreck fullmelt fucks me off

Very cool Phatesh. As soon as I get comfortable with growing, I'll start to experiment with mediums. So far though (now that I know more) I'm starting to like the coco. Seems to have the benefits of hydro, but an easier set up...llike soil. My friend has a full hydro set up, and I like my actuall set up better, but like having the benies of hydro. Let me know how the superoot pots turn out, very curious on those.

Ya I know pics are great...but just as you have "half ass stoner posts" LOL, I have half ass attention span. So when I'm flushing and observing PPM runoff of monumental proportions, I forget to click. I'll get 'em up tonight. I've been wanting to post pics of my grow anyway, nows a better reason than ever.

Dutch: Love the chart, and thank you! So anything above the 100% line is dangerous?? At 6", my lady was up to 175 PAR. A little too much? LOL

Thanks again everyone. Now I can't stay away from this place. Love it!

*junk

yeah...light distance is a tricky thing....and not all reflectors are created equal...some are better than others. The ones with crinkles seem to be better than smoothed polished surfaces...IMO.

I couldn't get my 400 watt HPS or CMH bulbs closer than 15 inches from the canopy. I have a smooth polished reflector...

__________________
"Consider yo' bad self enlightened, homeslice"-StinkyAttic

There's nothing wrong with making do with what you have, lol.
Being on a fixed income makes one resourseful, and I don't grow commercially so am not going to sweat a lumen or two.

Also, it was 96 degrees in my flowering shed a few minutes ago when I took this shot. (107 outside) Thank goodness for air conditioning.

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__________________
Your disappointments grow in direct proportion to your expectations.
If you are comfortable with your facts, you should assume I'll be comfortable challenging those facts.

Horticultural Myths and Folklore
Fox Farms Feeding Schedule
Dealing With Heat Issues in the Desert
Rusty's Bonsai Re-Vegging
CanCom Troubleshooting Forms

Dutch: well I have a 250w in a "crinkeled" hood. I have to tell you it's bright as all hell in the homebox!! I almsot need nuclear test shades when I open it up LOL. Strangely enough, the one plant seeming to be doing the best is the 1 male. He is (was) the farthest away (about 15")and is filling and "balling" out ever so nicely. So I just followed suit and lowered the plants to about 10" away from the light lastnight (no more room to raise the light). My lights come on at 8pm so I'm looking forward to seeing how they're doing, and giving them another bath.

Rusty: Yes it was a hot one today, and early!! By 8am I was thinking "wtf! it's hot!" Oh well, summer is upon us. I have a wall mount a/c unit with half it's ducting piped into the grow room, keeping it a cool 76* lately. It's nice, elect. bill sucks. I know you stated here and in your dealing with heat thread that you've had good experiences in the low to mid 90's. Still makes me nervouse though to even let them get above 80*. Am I being too paranoid and anal??

*junk

It's basically a balancing act. But yeah...kinda being anal, lol. Is a hothouse optimal? No. But I go through this every year, and can't afford a larger a/c, nor the higher electric bills it would create. And I'm very pleased with my results, regardless. I also work at home so can keep an eye on 'em all day.

Also, under these extreme conditions...my indica's and indica dom's fare better at the upper temp extremes than do the sativa's and sativa dom's. Vice-versa in the winter.

Yeah, last few weeks were beautiful, then this week someone turned the oven on. Best spring in a few years though. Actually had one.

__________________
Your disappointments grow in direct proportion to your expectations.
If you are comfortable with your facts, you should assume I'll be comfortable challenging those facts.

Horticultural Myths and Folklore
Fox Farms Feeding Schedule
Dealing With Heat Issues in the Desert
Rusty's Bonsai Re-Vegging
CanCom Troubleshooting Forms

Right on Rusty. I'll raise the a/c t-stat that I wired into the grow room in small increments to let it get to around 85*. I don't want to do it all the way right away. It's sitting at 76* right now and a 10* difference in temp might not be favorable. As it's getting hotter here, that probably won't lower my elec bill, but it will at least stop it from spiraling out of control. Wish I was able to work at home full time. I can only do it part time now.

I can't remember when the last time was we had a spring. It was very very nice.

Lament for our spring

*junk

I wouldn't go overboard, nor would I do it if I could afford a cooler growroom, a cool tube, a mansion in Beverly Hills... You did read how it may add a week or more to harvest date, right? And I've never tried using coco for this. Would you be able to keep the soil from drying too quick?

Ok...got the disclaimers out of the way. But if bills are pressing, I'd push the limits in small increments. Keep an eye on soil moisture and ambient humidity levels. You'll have to water a tad more. Perhaps a lot more, lol. I'd forsee no problems with a couple degrees a week or so till acclimated...except I've never tried with coco.

__________________
Your disappointments grow in direct proportion to your expectations.
If you are comfortable with your facts, you should assume I'll be comfortable challenging those facts.

Horticultural Myths and Folklore
Fox Farms Feeding Schedule
Dealing With Heat Issues in the Desert
Rusty's Bonsai Re-Vegging
CanCom Troubleshooting Forms

Thanks Rusty. I'll keep that all in mind, and I remember you mentioned the possible length of harvest time...which is understandable. I figured it would dry out the coco faster, so I'll just keep up on it. I did another flush tonight and got all but one down to 700PPM, and go that one down to 600PPM. So I think I'm on the right track. I did raise the temp up to 79*, and will continue probably to about 85*....baby steps though

Ok, here's the pics as promised. My 2 month old beagle ate the "tube" leaves that I pruned off, so I couldn't snap those...and he seems a touch happier
The lighting turns out funky under a HPS light...very strange and hard to get the color interpretation across, but here ya go:
1st: is of the problem plant as mentioned before. These tips are curling under.
2nd: The center of this one blood red, off the same plant. Normal?
3rd: Lower leafs of the same plant. Notice the stems? Strange color but could be normal.
4th: The whole grow room, complete with bent plant
5:Lower leafs of another fem, but all in all she's in good shape. Just wanted to show it off to see if it's indicative of an overlying problem.

I'm hoping everything is under control now that I got the PPM's down, lowered the plants and the PH...oh and of course watering a lot more regularly. However, I would still love to hear anyone's input on this.

Thanks again!

*junk

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Here's the crap factory that ate the leaves. He's my boy though, he rocks

*junk

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Since we're showing pet pix...
Here's Bo (4.5 lb chihuahua) and his favorite fetch toy.

Attached Images

Bo Flower.JPG (105.4 KB, 6 views)

__________________
Your disappointments grow in direct proportion to your expectations.
If you are comfortable with your facts, you should assume I'll be comfortable challenging those facts.

Horticultural Myths and Folklore
Fox Farms Feeding Schedule
Dealing With Heat Issues in the Desert
Rusty's Bonsai Re-Vegging
CanCom Troubleshooting Forms

LOL....that's awesome Rusty. We have a little chihuahua too, she's a freak. Does he eat your leaves too?

Looking forward for the lights to come on tonight and see how they like a night with half the PPM they were used to. I'll post results and updated pics when I see some change.

*junk

my jack russel well eat the white widow but runs from the master kush lol

looks like some possible light burn or ahh lets see how they come back should start looking good now hopefully

LOL...hrmmm, wonder why that is??

I thought that too, but it's not on the upper canopy, just on the lower half. If it was light burn wouldn't it be on the top too??

*junk