A few weeks back I built a pure fog system. Plz no suggestions about switching to a new method. I have my reasons for doing fog. At any rate, about 4 days ago I dialed in the system and was getting really good growth and nice green leaves. 3 days ago I decided that the water was too dirty and that I should probably lower the ppm's in the water anyway, so I changed it out. I believe I took too long on the water change which was probably in the neighborhood of an hour. I wasn't careful enough with the bottoms of the cups as I ended up brushing some of the roots which caused several of them to start to brown and shrivel up. I have been having problems with root development but that is in the past. The roots are developing nicely in mass and they are hairy and white. At the time I changed the water I also lowered the light hood which I also believe was a mistake. After a few hours the leaves looked even worse. I think the light was too low at only a few inches off the top of the canopy. I just read that for a 600 mh light I should be about 18 to 24 inches away from the tops. That's been fixed.

There are other things I did wrong I'm sure but I will post a few of my activities over the past few days in hopes of someone spotting something:

1) changed water and left plants out of fog for an hour
2) lowered ppm's to around 400 to 425 from about 550 to 600 previously. My water source is 225 right out of the gate. I will eventually install a water filter at my source.
3) lowered 600 mh light from around 2 feet to about 4 inches from top which then caused the heat to rise to about 84 degrees before I finally had enough and raised light to 20" from top of canopy.
4) installed a new fan today to help lower temps which is just blowing across the top of the canopy.

Current measurements:
425 ppm
5.8 ph
83f water reservoir
79f plants
600mh 18/6 cycle now sitting at 20 inches above canopy
30ml in a 15 gallon res of root hormone
Fog timer set to 90 seconds on, about 5 minutes off. I continue to worry about not giving them enough moisture. The drooping leaves would indicate not enough water wouldn't it or too much light/heat?

Something to keep in mind is that what you see in the pics has been caused by many different mistakes on my part. I know leaves are falling off the bottom but don't use that as part of your diagnosis. I know that I likely burned them as well with too much fert in the begging, but what I don't know is whether I am continuing to burn them, or are the leaves just showing scars from the damage I caused earlier? About a week ago I had the light pretty high and was under the impression that I should be lowering it every couple days until it's a few inches above the canopy. Is it possible that my current issues are from me lowering the light too much? Given that the light is in the right place, assuming 18 to 24 inches is correct, will the leaves return to full green or will they stay yellowish? What else can I do here? Lower ppm's to 300 maybe and for how long?

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Your ppm's are to high, I have hard water about 250ppm and mine show similar issues in the seedling stage but not as bad. Your ppms should be around 200 or lower before the cotyledons start to fade. Once the leaves show signs of burn of discoloration they will not turn green again unless the cells are still living. Unfortunately u picked a very advanced growing method, and it takes advanced knowledge for it to work properly. It's a trial and error process with fog along with proven methods of use. You cant just guess the ppms and have it run every so often and expect good results.

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Smoke WEEED

I dont know what your reasons for using the method are im no judge or anything but personally u picked the hardest way to grow that allows minimal room for error. An aero system would have been much better in your case to work yourself into fog techniques. Doing fog for your first grow or for a beginner is like jumping in the deep end and you havnt a clue how to swim. It's a fun idea to do the best way of growing, but it means nothing in the end when the results are crap. But hopefully u can pick up the pieces and get this to work. I know if u can do this trial run and get all the kinks worked out, the next will be better and so on.

I do believe most people use two foggers one for plain water and one for nutes, that solves the roots drying up problem and over fert. The thing with fog is u havnt realized is that PPM's play a role and also how often they get fed, because they will just keep sucking up nutes at a high rate in fog, unlike other methods where the roots take time to suck up the nutes.

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We don't have rights, it's just that simple.

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Smoke WEEED

Where have you been getting all of your information and procedures for running a fog system?

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I'm entitled to my opinion, and my opinion is that your not allowed to have an opinion. - George Carlin

We don't have rights, it's just that simple.

The best way to accomplish anything is through education.


Smoke WEEED

I have read an awful lot about fog growing and I have not once heard of a two fogger system. Tell me more.

On the ppm's: Are you saying the source water is too hard? Would I be better to run plain water for now at 225 - 250, or go buy a water filter and then use ferts to get it to 225 - 250? What ppm's should I be running at anyway, my guess would be 200 to 250? I originally started at 800 sense that is what I was told at the hydro store. Every week I learn something new about this or that and I bring down the ppm's. If there was one person whom I trusted about fog I would listen to every word, but nobody I know does fog. My local hyrdo supplier tells me to stay away from the boards and the boards tell me to stay away from the store.

I don't have a problem keeping the environmental conditions absolutely perfect and I have faith that my setup will produce exceptional results, however it seems I am on my own for this grow. I have yet to see a grow log conducted with fog. If I had timer settings, ppm & ph levels I would have no problem implementing it, but alas I still search.

As to why I am doing fog: it's just a hobby. I have enjoyed every minute of this process from start to end. And I definitely agree that my second try will be better then my first, but I ask for a hobby or sport where this isn't the case already.

My wife says I need to just go buy some water for now instead of getting a filter, so that is what I will do tonight. I am bringing my tds meter to test the water before I purchase. I recall that certain waters are better but cant remember which one to get. Was it distilled as opposed to spring or local filtered?

Well i surely dont know a whole lot about fog. Your ppms should be low until you get some good growth mass developing(like i said before 250 in enough to burn mine). Fog also utilizes the fact u dont need as much nutes, so u might want to shoot all the way down to 200ppm's for now. U can get distilled water at the store for about 1.50 a gallon, add half cal/mag, half nutes desired 200ppms. An idea might be to run a seperate drip system instead of a 2nd fogger, i know they use them becuase there a dry and wet type there called fogfognugen or something like that, i havnt a clue how its done or set up. However, like i was saying, u can run a drip system every hour to keep the roots satisfied and not dry, with fog, doing more cycles per hour wont help. That would be my initial plan to fix the issue, that or an ebb and flow, what ever seems easier for you.

Nutramist -- RETROFITTING - some more reading


It you dont have calmag i would get just regular poland spring or something, there about 50ppms, distilled should be 0ppms. But remember ur going to need cal/mag if u go this route. what are your ppms out of the house water?

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We don't have rights, it's just that simple.

The best way to accomplish anything is through education.


Smoke WEEED

Fogponics.com as well as here and a few other sources. There are a few attempts at grow logs here but they are incomplete as well as hybrid systems. The most crucial piece of information that I have yet to get from anyone consistently is how much fog do I feed them? I have heard dozens of different views on this. Another piece of missing info is exactly what level ppm's to maintain.

The best explination i can find on the internet is to use less nutes then with a normal application becuase the roots become more efficient at absorption. I would say run the fog for 15min every hour, drop your ppms for sure tho.

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We don't have rights, it's just that simple.

The best way to accomplish anything is through education.


Smoke WEEED

That's a good article, thanks. I am still reading it, but it does reinforce some of the opinions I have thus far about fog. First off, the method I am using at the stage I am in the grow, many people use as a separate cloning machine. I have read dozens of grow logs where people have set up cloning machines to populate their gardens and they use single chamber fog systems to do it. Much further in the process then I appear to be now, these machines work flawlessly. Where many people disagree about fog is in the later stages of development, but I have that covered. My problems are likely to do with the water source. I have from day one used water that was 225 to 250 and from there have added various levels of nutes. I need to get drastic and come up with another water source.

Best IDEA!!! you have really good water like me then. Go get some distilled water or anything that is bottle that has a low ppm like spring water and just mix one gal with one gal. You will have good minerals from your house water and then u can dilute it so the plants dont burn or have nute lock out. Once they get bigger u can forget about diluting it as the plants will enjoy all those minerals. The fog timing isnt that big of an issue as long as the ppms are inn range with plant growth. To get an idea of where your ppms should be i would take what a normal hydro system uses and cut it in half and up it periodically. So seedlings normally would be about 150, u would want about 75. 2nd week about 250, 125 for fog, 3rd week about 400, 200 for fog, and so on. I would start at 100ppms for now, the plants wont hurt but they wont grow to fast and bring up the ppms each week a little. a good indication u where the ppms should be a little browning of the tips tells u to back off.

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I'm entitled to my opinion, and my opinion is that your not allowed to have an opinion. - George Carlin

We don't have rights, it's just that simple.

The best way to accomplish anything is through education.


Smoke WEEED

You can even dilute the water a bit more to add some vegg nutes in since i see your plants burned through the cotyledons.

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We don't have rights, it's just that simple.

The best way to accomplish anything is through education.


Smoke WEEED

OK Jack sorry to do this to you, but you added in some second and third thoughts. What final instructions do you have? I will likely get the water from one of these filler up stations. I will take my meter and get the lowest ppm count I can and if that doesn't get me low enough then i will just buy some distilled water in a jug. If I use just this water then I will have to add in Cal-mag, but if I mix it half and half then I can avoid Cal-mag. A 50/50 mix will put me at about 100 to 125 which will be fine next week probably. However this week, tonight's water change, I will reduce the water blend further to 25/75 to hopefully get a ppm of about 75 and then add in my oh so dangerous veg ferts to get a final res ppm of about 100 to 125. Next week I will bump the ppm's if all goes well. Does this sound right?

Will I be able to heal the plant leaves at least the yellowing? How long should I wait to see signs of improvement? Will the leaves pick up and the yellow start to fade?

Yup that sounds good to me, Dont worry about the leaves, the probability of saving them is low, but they may come back. Fortunately your plants are still very young and u can let them vegg a little longer to get more leaves. I always loose some leaves its not really a big deal.

__________________
I'm entitled to my opinion, and my opinion is that your not allowed to have an opinion. - George Carlin

We don't have rights, it's just that simple.

The best way to accomplish anything is through education.


Smoke WEEED

First I see your water as a big problem. You need to start from zero with fog and half or less nutes. Really you don't know what the 225ppm's are in your water. Chlorine or floride in a fogger will not work and we have seen what happens. It's not pretty and it looks like what is happening to yours.

The thing I found with fog is the roots can not be dry for even a few minutes. fog is so fine a mist it dries up fast. And will let root chamber heat up unless the room is kept cold. We finally had to keep the fog on 24/7. When the plants get bigger the fog needs to increase big time. This is where we started down hill. I meen you need alot of fog or your plants need the water up take. that is why even the boys at NASA saw that an areo system or DWC hybrid running was needed to really bring home the buds.

Get some clean water and pump up the fog they will be OK.

OH, and you have had some really good help reasoning things out.

By far this has been the best help, it's much appreciated. Last night I went and got some 11 ppm R/O water. I left about 3 gallons of my old water in the tank and then mixed in the R/O water until I had 150 ppm's. I added nothing else and will let that sit for a few days. Already 12 hours later the leaves have picked up and they give off good vibes. I'm not sure how to explain it but you can sort of just tell when you finally get it right, the plant gives good vibes.

This is now the 3rd crisis I have gone through and I have to wonder what else is waiting. I have a feeling even before reading today's posts, that the timer was going to be the next thing. I still don't have definitive advice on how long to set the timer for. Now today it looks like I should be increasing the watering timer every week or so.

As to the watering issues, tell me if this will work. I have a single chamber fog system so it's inevitable that the roots will grow down to the bottom of the tank. They will eventually touch the water and will be able to use that as their source of water. Will I even need to increase the fog if I allow the roots to grow down to the res? I have bubblers in there already so it's kind of like a DWC system at that point.

I have thought long and hard about whether to put my original spray heads back into the chamber. I used a homemade aeroponic system while I waited for the fogger to arrive. The problem I have with putting the sprayers back in is that my misters hit the bottom of the net cups which means that I wont have a fog zone any more so why even use fog in the first place. I know a lot of people use fog for only the first few weeks and then switch to another system. If I were to include sprayers then the best way to include them would be towards the middle of the res. Then I would have a fog zone, spray zone and finally a DWC zone. I think fogbox does something like that. My point is that I don't even have enough roots to allow the misters to even make contact with roots and if I raise the misters then I negate the fog. All the problems associated with fog tend to be with the later stages of plant development with the plants incessant need for massive amounts of water and I'm no where near that point. My issues seem to be with my retardedness more then anything. First the lights too low, then late night timer issues, now the water.

If I did include spray heads, wouldn't they best be used towards the middle of the root zone which means that I don't even need to worry about that for at least another week or two?

Thanks for the great info fellows.

i would just do a ebb and flow or dripper, when the fog is off to soak the roots, or u could set a timer to fog, and then right after u can have another timer switch on a drip or something. So ur cycling the process, when the roots start to dry up let the cycle restart, the roots will absorb a lot from the fog, and then they will get drenched right after with the a drip or ebb or even ur misters. This should keep everything in check, and allow u to still utilize the full capability of the fog. That article i gave you is pretty good, u dont have to follow anything to the T, make it ur own
About the roots being in the bottom, is it possible to have a separate res? I don't think u want the roots to be submerged for long periods of time. That tap root sucks up a lot of nutes, it might overwhelm the fog capabilities.

__________________
I'm entitled to my opinion, and my opinion is that your not allowed to have an opinion. - George Carlin

We don't have rights, it's just that simple.

The best way to accomplish anything is through education.


Smoke WEEED

I broke down and put misters tn tonight and in a mater of hours the plants doubled in leaf size. I am pretty amazed. Regardless of the nutrients level the plants for sure have not been getting enough water. I think the problem lies in the size of the container I used. Tonight as I was installing the misters I noticed the fog wanting to settle on the bottom 3 inches above the water line. Now I could add another 20 gallons into the res or I can just get a smaller container. This would be more along the lines of the fogponic commercially available system with their shallow fog chamber. I also read that the misters should only be used in 15 on and then off. I think I will get a second timer for the misters as well. I can alternately cycle the misters and fog in a more shallow container and I will probably be spot on.

The only problem with using a second chamber is that I would need a way to move the fog around. Up till this point I have been using fans but I have had 3 burn out do to moisture build up. Unless I know for sure there is such a thing as a water proof fan, then I don't want to create a system that would use a fan. Besides I had fans blowing down and within the fog chamber already and still it doesn't help the fog stay were it needs too. A fanless system would be ideal I think.

I'm hoping the roots will be fine at the bottom of the res chamber. Since the nute level's will be pretty low, I hope the plants will be fine. Isn't this how the DWC method works anyway? I have seen pictures of a DWC/fog system and those plants were huge.

You need to match the size of ur root chamber to the output capacity of the fog, U should be able to fill up the chamber completely with fog, not just the bottom, What fogger are u using?

Keep in mind a DWC grown plant sucks up massive amounts of water, and if your Nute solution is low in PPM the plants will be flushing out all those nutes the fog just gave it. But then again there is always a balance you could find between the two. A DWC/fog method kinda seems redundant becuase there 2 methods on completely different extremes of Hydro. One Utilizes alot of water and alot of nutes, while the other is the exact opposite, fog requires little water and low ppms. A DWC/fog method would be more like a DWC then fog type set up which im sure your not really trying to do.

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I'm entitled to my opinion, and my opinion is that your not allowed to have an opinion. - George Carlin

We don't have rights, it's just that simple.

The best way to accomplish anything is through education.


Smoke WEEED

In any case, try and find a container that isnt so deep, i searched ur posts and found ur set up. Since the fog is heavy it will drop, and once it hits water it will condense quickly(remeber water is polar and sticks to itself).. I really think the best solution your going to come up with would be to find a container at least half the depth of the one u have now, and use a separate res. The fog has to fill up the chamber so it can engulf the roots, and if u can fit some misters in there go for it. u could fog a couple times before having the misters come on too. Also, the separate res makes life so much easier because ur gonna have to dump the water out once-twice a week anyway, with a seperate res u wont have to change the water as frequently because the roots only get what u give them and your nutes should stay in balance a little longer.

__________________
I'm entitled to my opinion, and my opinion is that your not allowed to have an opinion. - George Carlin

We don't have rights, it's just that simple.

The best way to accomplish anything is through education.


Smoke WEEED

I drew a quick sketch for you, the misting lines dont go through the bottom of the root chamber kinda hard to make it out, they would enter up on the side to prevent leaks. This way u will have a shallow root chamber and u can utilize all the supplies u already have. Much better to have a complete aero system them an hybrib that defeats the purpose. let me know what u think.

Attached Images

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__________________
I'm entitled to my opinion, and my opinion is that your not allowed to have an opinion. - George Carlin

We don't have rights, it's just that simple.

The best way to accomplish anything is through education.


Smoke WEEED

damn dude, your making me want to go aero now haha

__________________
I'm entitled to my opinion, and my opinion is that your not allowed to have an opinion. - George Carlin

We don't have rights, it's just that simple.

The best way to accomplish anything is through education.


Smoke WEEED

Hey JackdaWack,

I would like to point out to you that "fogfognugen" is the name I gave my frankenfogger setup that I built. It is an aero/fog grow tray(s) setup that uses two types of fog, one based on a high pressure pump and misters and second fog based on an ultrasonic FrapaPlas fogger.

Hello Prodaytrader,

I tried to answer one of your questions on another thread awhile ago, and have since seen you looking all over for answers to many more questions. I've been busy away from the board trying to take care of my housemate Tonto. (He's 91 and had a ATV accident)

First, not all fog is created equal. Fog growing is really just an outgrowth of aeroponics, just a bit more efficent. If you decide to supplement your fog then do it with aero, something like ez-clonner misters, are not true misters and are really hydro. Trying to go from hydro to fog will have it's problems, I just found out how big a problem. Rooted cuttings from an ez-clonner going into an aero/fog will loose thier terpidity or wilt out badly, it is kind of a transplant shock for them. In hydro they develope tap or water roots but no hair roots. Hair roots is what feed off of fog the most, and it takes time and right conditions to grow.

Second as pointed out above, you need to use RO water and nutrient use is much less. A good starting point is to use a 40% solution. Example is if the nutes mfg recommends 20ml/gal, then I would use 40ml/5gal. This is based on most handwatering suggestions to use full strenght nutes once then plain water twice to feed. Since you are feeding all the tiime the 40% is right there. Type of nutes are an issue, especially if you are using a pond fogger based ultrasonic fogger. They clog real easy. Make sure you are using teflon replacement discs and look for a clean running nutrient, many fog users swear by Humbolts master, but I've had good results with Duch Master's Advance.

You are not alone growing with fog, so hang in there. I would suggest you look at my album showing the building of "fogfognugen" to see what I used in my build.

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Keep it civil please, gentlemen. -stinkyattic
I think people should be educated to the fact marijuana is not a drug. Marijuana is an herb and a flower. God put it here and He wants it to grow, what gives the government the right to say God is wrong? -Willie Nelson

I am pretty sure I told you in another thread about a week ago (Many weeks, sooo tiny) that you weren't supposed to be feeding plants that young, and yet you are still choosing to feed them, and as a result, are still experiencing problems. How do you expect to fix your problems if you won't take advice from people who have been there before and know what your problem is and are trying to help you?

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The above post is fictional and should in no way be taken as truth.

If I were to grow cannabis, I would only do so to supply myself and my close friends. Doing this would take myself and my friends out of harms way by knowing the source of our cannabis, as well as take hundreds of thousands of dollars off the black market annually. It would also lower the demand of black market cannabis, and would ultimately help keep cannabis out of the hands of minors.

oldmac few questions:

If I resolve my pump issue either by getting a cyclone pump or a diaphragm pump which I hear will also work, I can get the proper 50 psi needed for a high pressure aero. If I could design something that would allow for two chambers one of which is a shallow one for the plants, then can I alternate between the wet and dry all the way to flower? The wet I could feed into the side of the shallow chamber like you did, but how are you moving the fog through your chamber? What kind of fan is reliable enough to move the fog? I've burned up 3 thus far with my fog alone. Also, it seems my net cups aren't fully taking advantage of the holes. My slits only go up half way, which maybe isn't sufficient with fog?

Don't take it personally dejayou30, I'm just getting conflicting opinions is all and some of this info takes time to sink in. It turns out that my water alone was still too much for the plants to handle.

One other thing, given that I have low pressure sprayers in there now and the fog, I decided to run both simultaneously until I can afford the pump and a second timer not to mention all the chamber parts, what kind of timing should I be using? I am still keeping the nutes in the 100 to 150 range since I'm still using the fogger. My current timing is 10 off and 2 on running both together. Seems to be workings but like I said the roots are also changing so I don't want to over water and kill them all.

In my current fogfognugen setup the high pressure mister side runs 7 seconds every 1/2 hour. The fogger runs 10 minutes every 1/2 hour and the events are off set by 10 mins. ie: top of hour misters run, then 10 min later the fogger runs for 10 min and 10 min later back to pump/mister event.
Also I should note that fogfognugen is a "fog to waste" system, there is no recirculation of spent nutrient solution. I'm currently running the pump/misters at 200-210psi and with impingement nozzles with just .012" orifices this "aero" is very much a fog.

Hope some of this might help you. I have a thread from about a month ago showing a little bit of setting up my aero/fog tray, I'd love to link it here but I'm too lame on a 'puter to do that. Look for it in the "hydro" section, maybe I'll bump it up so you can find it easier. Have a couple of "fog" pics in it. I would love to see more people trying to use fog, it really is a great way to grow.

__________________
Don't touch my Willie - Kevin Fowler
Keep it civil please, gentlemen. -stinkyattic
I think people should be educated to the fact marijuana is not a drug. Marijuana is an herb and a flower. God put it here and He wants it to grow, what gives the government the right to say God is wrong? -Willie Nelson