Thread: Who can help diagnose my issue?

Situation basics:

Plants are 3.5 weeks old (in veg), bubble gum strain.

The room tends to stay in the low 80s and into the high 70s at night. Humidity is typically around 50%

Under a 400W MH 24/0 in soil which is local hydro shops "pro mix" plus about 33% (by volume) perlite.

Plants are given a half gallon of water twice a week. 1 time is the botanicare directions found here -> with ph'd and the other is ph'd water with 10ml cal-mag per gallon.

According to the soil PH meter (the 2 probe basic one) my PH is in the mid 6's for the soil.

Im thinking nute deficency, but I am having issues finding a pic that matches (i am very poor at diagnosing nute deficiencies)

There are pictures of 2 plants attached.

Thank you in advance for any sugestions/help

More pics

I think you fried them, 3.5 weeks old probably only need small amounts of fertilizer. Too much pearlite will cause your soil to not retain as much water either.

I'd flush them very well that stick to just water. With that much pearlite you may need to water a little more often.

Thanks. Here is the link for the nute schedule I follow. (sorry it didnt post)

Does this seam reasonable?

Can you also better define the term "fried" please?

Thank you.

botanicare/dutch master/fox farm. how to use em

You shouldn't be giving them any nutrients the first few weeks so I believe that to be your problem. Give them just water until they start to recover.

Dude, to hell with all that jarrgon just try to keep it simple. You'll spend more on two bottles of that crap then I'll spend on all nutrients for 18 plants for a full grow.

Originally Posted by ddxsinxcosxdx

Thanks. Here is the link for the nute schedule I follow. (sorry it didnt post)

Does this seam reasonable?

Can you also better define the term "fried" please?

Thank you.

botanicare/dutch master/fox farm. how to use em

Exactly which botanicare nutes do you have??? I can help you with a feeding recipe to make sure your macro and micro nutes are covered and available, at the right amounts, per period of growth....

Like mentioned before, flush really good.... Once the plants look healthy again, you can resume nutes at a low strength.... After flushing, don't water again until at least 75% of the moisture has transpired....

Don't let nute mix recipes confuse you, once you know how and what effects when, your plants will thank you.... And anything more than 5ml per gallon of cal-mag is too much....

CGI::::::

I use:

PBPG
PBPB (Soil)
Liquid Karma
and cal-mag

Nutrition and diagnosis really is a week point for me, and I welcome all advise on how to get better. I have Ed Rosenthals book, which I read and use for reference, but I cant seem to get to the point I understand plant nutrition well enough to avoid using someone elses set pattern.

Plants are due to be watered tomorrow. I will flush them and report back on how theyre doing in a few days.

I've read Ed's book a dozen times or so and it's great reference material.

When plants are smaller they can't take an OD of nutrients like older and more mature plants. Although I start with just MG I go on the very conservitive side until they are a few feet tall then I go full strength. Superthrive is supposed to be beneficial to new plants I'd suggest you use some on your next watering as it tends to help plants recover from shock.

Originally Posted by ddxsinxcosxdx

I use:

PBPG
PBPB (Soil)
Liquid Karma
and cal-mag

On the back of the PBPG bottle is a feeding chart.... Have you tried using the recommended dosages or just been going off the chart on the link you provided???

The chart on the back of the bottle is just a user guide to give you an idea of how you should feed, light when young and heavier dosages as they grow....

Macro Nutes - These are your N-P-K's.... Your PBPG has an N-P-K ratio of 3-2-4 and PBPB (soil formula) has an N-P-K ratio of 1.5-4-5.... These are great for beginners because they can be used as stand alone ferts for veg and bloom....

Micro Nutes - These are Calcium, Magnesium, Iron, Zinc, Manganese etc.... These element are necessary for plant growth but only in trace amounts.... These are also found in your cal-mag and liquid karma.... Over feeding trace elements will have negative affects on your plants....just like when over feeding Macro Nutes....

The trick is to build up their nute tolerance.... And the best way to learn is with a ppm meter.... With a ppm meter and RO or distilled water, you can easily find out how much of a dosage, in ppm, each macro/micro nute formula has....then do the math to figure out how much of what can be given to end at the desired ppm for each particular stage of growth....

This is how you build nute tolerance with ppm's....
Veg ----------
Week 1 - No Nutes, only plain RO or Distilled water....soil should have enough Nutes to get it going before you start supplementing....
Week 2 - 3-400ppm's
Week 3 - 4-500ppm's
Week 4 - 5-600ppm's
Bloom -----------
Week 5 - 6-700ppm's
Week 6 - 7-800ppm's
Week 7 - 8-900ppm's
Week 8 - 9-1000ppm's
Week 9 - 10-1100ppm's
Week 10 - 11-1200ppm's
Week 11 - 12-1300ppm's
Week 12 - 13-1400ppm's or flush this week, depending on strain, trichs and when you feel like harvesting....

Start with once a week feeds.... Once you feel confident, and you plants are large enough, you can try twice a week but make sure to give plain water between feedings....

But you get the picture of what I mean by how to build nute tolerance, right??? You always want to start off light and end strong.... The ppm's would be a mix of your macro and micro nutes.... And vitamins if you decide you want to throw some of those in too.... I would strongly recommend vitamin B-1, Thiamine Mononitrate.... The Thiamine promotes systemic active resistance within the plant which in turn gives you healthy happy plants that are less susceptible to infections or disease....

I'll be glad to walk you through the process of figuring out ppm levels for each of your products and how to combine them if you need assistance in doing so....

Oh and one last thing, I've been using CM and LK for years now and let me tell you that I have not notices a difference in growth between the LK recommended amounts and using less amounts of it but I have noticed reduced growth without it as well.... So what I'm trying to get at is you shouldn't use more than 5ml per gallon of each CM and LK....anymore is just a waste....


Hope this helps....

CGI::::::

CGI: It does help. I have been blindly following that chart, calling week 1 the first week that my cuttings are rooted and then placed in dirt.

Ya know, this is a hard art (and this is coming from someone with BAs in Math and Econ) to learn. I can get a crop to harvest, and it smokes and people like it, but I want to get better. I know I can get better quality medication from these plants.

I'm currently on tap water, and am just waiting to see a little money (hopefully in the next month or so) so I can finish installing my RO setup. I am hoping that once I get that done, I start to see happier plants.

I've been using liquid measurements (ml), so I will look up more information about how to convert to PPM and start to use that as a measurement of fertilizer input.

When you say x-y00 ppm does that mean total for all additives or total? (additives plus what is in my High quality (read: crap) tap water?))

Also, do you define week 1 to be the first week they are rooted or the week they are cut?

Thank you again for your help.

I've re-read your post a few times (theres a lot of good info there, thanks again) I just want to make sure I have a few more things right:

I currently use gallons of water for watering. On a plant that is midway through its flower cycle I give 30ml of bloom-soil 7ml cal-mag and 10ml of lk... by my math that is 12433 ppm (1 gallon ~= 3780 ml, I use 47 ml of total nutes => 47000/3.78 = 12433) (also, 1ml in 1 gallon of water = 264ppm)

So, I've been using 12-14 times the amount of nutrients I should have been? (Yes, I realize you said that I'm over fertilizing.... but damn that's WAY over kill)

For the specific plants above the math works out as 11111 ppm. 22-28 times what you recommend.

My other question is how do you choose how much of each fertilizer?

Originally Posted by ddxsinxcosxdx

My other question is how do you choose how much of each fertilizer?

Alright, ready??? What we do first is get some RO or Distilled water and a ppm meter.... Once you have these we can then look at the recommended strengths and do a ppm measurement test to find out how many ppms are at those rates....

Example: Cal-Mag recommends a dosage of 5ml per gallon.... So what we do is divide that gallon into liters, 4, and divide the recommended 5ml by 4 and put together....divide by 4 because we are only going to use 1liter of RO water and 1.25ml of cal mag to figure out the recommended ppm dosage....

Step 1 - measure ppm's in plain RO water. (We'll use 40ppm for this example)....
Step 2 - drop 1.25ml of cal mag into the RO water, mix....
Step 3 - dip ppm meter into water (Total ppm is 265, cal mag and RO)
Step 4 - subtract the total by the number previous to the addition of nute....

225ppms is the number of ppms cal mag contributes per gallon.... So knowing this and wanting to be at 300ppms on week 2 of veg, we can already see that we cannot give the recommended dose of 5ml per gallon at that stage....

So you repeat the ppm measurement test with the rest of your bottles an figure out how many ppms are available at the recommended doses, then divide them up to make your nute recipe add up to the desired ppm levels for the proper period of growth....have I lost you yet??? Also, your nute recipe should not exceed 5ml of cal-mag and liquid karma....

When I say week one, I mean a clone rooting into the soil/pot it is going to veg in.... Get RO as soon as possible....tap water is giving you an extra 250-350 ppms, depending on your area, of unknown and uncontrolled minerals and additives....unwanted ones IMO....

Glad I can help....

So you've flushed them by now, right???


CGI::::::

Yup, just flushed them. I have the lights coming on kinda late right now so that I can try and get a few degrees cooler in there.

I'm gonna see what I can do to get the last bit of stuff I need for the RO setup, mainly I just need a water supply line, a 55 gallon barrel, an air stone, a float valve and to put it all together.


By root computation, I came up with 1ml = 264 ppm. Does this seem reasonable to you?

The thought of getting an identical amount of any liquid poured every time just doesn't happen. I have no problem getting a meter and testing, but to use it as a guideline, I would rather go with computation.... maybe im just crazy.

Originally Posted by ddxsinxcosxdx

By root computation, I came up with 1ml = 264 ppm. Does this seem reasonable to you?

The thought of getting an identical amount of any liquid poured every time just doesn't happen. I have no problem getting a meter and testing, but to use it as a guideline, I would rather go with computation.... maybe im just crazy.

If you use your computation, you will be wrong every time....why??? Because not all formulas are created equal....and not all formulas are given in equal portions, only the micro and trace....N-P-K's will exceed the dosages before and after your cal mag and liquid k cap at 5ml per gallon....

The example I gave earlier was a real measurement example, not just made up numbers.... I literally did the steps while writing the post and those were the numbers I came up with.... Now after reading that you want to use your computation, I decided to measure the liquid k at 1.25ml per liter.... The result was a ppm of 70.... So you see why I recommend a ppm meter.... Don't let $20 stand in the way of you knowing what your ppms are.... If I had your exact nutes, I'd tell you what the PBPG and PBPB are too.... So for now, know that the LK and CM give you 70ppm for LK @ 1.25ml per liter and 225ppms of CM @ 1.25ml per liter....

Here's an example of what your nute recipe should look like....

Week 3 veg 4-500ppms per gallon
PBPG - 5ml
CalMag - 2.5ml
Liquid K - 2.5ml

At 1/2 strength of cal mags recommended strength and at 2.5ml per gal of Liquid K, you're at 182ppms or so....depending on the ppm strength of the PBPG, you should add accordingly to reach the 4-500ppms for that week.... Your N-P-K should always be more than your micros....

CGI::::::

Thanks again,

I was able to free up a little cash tonight, so, Ill get my RO machine and PPM meter tomorrow. I looked at one before and the store had 2 models, one that the guy said had to be caliabrated every time I use it, every test... ($40) and another that was suppose to be calibrated about once a month ($215)

Any ideas on these?

This is the $ 40 one HTG Supply - Primo TDS Tester

This is the $215 one HTG Supply - Trimeter by Nutradip

I cant get the expensive one right away, but at the same time, I never like to buy a crappy tool (Like anything from harbor freight)

I use a Primo myself.... I calibrate it every 2 or 3 months or so.... I have my recipe down to a point where I know where my ppms are before I measure with the meter.... I use the meter just for shits and giggles at this point....same with my pH meter.... Once you get a hang of things, it all comes natural....well it did/does for me anyway....

CGI::::::

So, week in update:

Affected plants look like they lost a few of the leaves that were showing burn, some were saved and most remained unaffected.

Im about to go give a watering (just water) and am still working on my RO machine. (its in, but it leaks too much to leave it on long enough to get my 55 gallon drum full)

PPM of my water as it sits right now is 120-125, what I have gotten out of the RO machine is floating between 1 and 2... much better.

I still dont think I have an understanding of how to use the PPMs that are available to me for each feeding. (What ratio of each nute should I use to make the feeding best for the plant?)

Anyone know anywhere good that I can learn more about the topic?

Originally Posted by CanGroIt

Here's an example of what your nute recipe should look like....

Week 3 veg 4-500ppms per gallon
PBPG - 5ml
CalMag - 2.5ml
Liquid K - 2.5ml

Have you tried this example yet to see what the ppms come out to???

Have you tried the ?ml per liter of your PBPG and PBPB to find your ppms on those??? Would really help you if you knew....

Originally Posted by ddxsinxcosxdx

I still dont think I have an understanding of how to use the PPMs that are available to me for each feeding. (What ratio of each nute should I use to make the feeding best for the plant?)

Anyone know anywhere good that I can learn more about the topic?

I'm trying to help you understand this but you have got to do the recommended ppm test for your PBPG and PBPB bottles in order to know how to mix them with your cal-mag and liquid k....

Your PBPG and PBPB will always be given at higher doses than your cal-mag and liquid k.... You don't have to give the same amount if LK as you do of CM, that's just something that I do and recommend....but knowing the ppm of it can certainly help you adjust your nute mix each grow so as to tweak your recipe to find what works best with the strain you are currently growing....

Do the rec ppm test and I can help you with the mixin of your nutes....

CGI::::::

Oh and re-read what I posted before, their is some good info there....

Initial water - 2-5 ppm (Got my RO machine in right finally )

PBPG - 590-600 ppm
PBPB - 750-760 ppm

Directions followed as described by CGI

Now with this info, you can now divide/multiply your ml per gallon to build nute tolerance....

So to have a nutrient balanced recipe mix and build nute tolerance, you look at your ppms per gallon and divide/multiply to get your ppms to the desired ppm....

We know that 2.5ml of each CM and LK give us a ppm of 180 or so per gallon.... Now that we know that "X"ml per gallon of PBPG gives us roughly 600ppms, we would have to divide "X" by 4 to get our desired ppm of 3-400 for week 2 of veg....

A nutrient balanced nute recipe will include, macro nutes, N-nitrogen, P-phosphorus, K-potassium and micro nutes which are found in your cal mag and liquid K.... Macro nutes will always be given at higher doses, which is why they are macro....and your micros at smaller doses....

So, for week 2 of veg, your recipe should be 1/4 of "X" and 2.5ml of each CM and LK....with this, your ppms should be between 3-400.... Then add from there each week....

Hope this helps.....

BTW, at what ml's did you use per gal to reach those ppm's??? For the PBPG & PBPB....

55gal drum with RO....lucky....

CGI::::::

In this case X is 5ml per gallon, so that means 1.25 ml. If I remember from earlier correctly, we should be using more PBPG or PBPB than CM or LK... how would you adjust this?

The RO machine wasen't bad, probably $300 total, and that puts the drum next to my work bench thanks to an extra long hose.

Im gonna go give them plain tap water 1 last time before I start feeding them again. Baised on what I understand, I should give fertilizer in water once a week for a week or so before switching to every watering, right?

THanks again

Originally Posted by ddxsinxcosxdx

So, week in update:

Affected plants look like they lost a few of the leaves that were showing burn, some were saved and most remained unaffected.

Im about to go give a watering (just water) and am still working on my RO machine. (its in, but it leaks too much to leave it on long enough to get my 55 gallon drum full)

PPM of my water as it sits right now is 120-125, what I have gotten out of the RO machine is floating between 1 and 2... much better.

I still dont think I have an understanding of how to use the PPMs that are available to me for each feeding. (What ratio of each nute should I use to make the feeding best for the plant?)

Anyone know anywhere good that I can learn more about the topic?

Why is your RO system leaking? if it's leaking from the couplings (where the tube meets the holes) then just push the tube in as hard as you can. if it's a canister leaking, then you may want to check if you accidently crossthreaded it when replacing or installing it. you may be able to unscrew it and get it on correctly, but you may have buggered it up so much that it needs to be replaced.

Originally Posted by ddxsinxcosxdx

In this case X is 5ml per gallon, so that means 1.25 ml. If I remember from earlier correctly, we should be using more PBPG or PBPB than CM or LK... how would you adjust this?

The RO machine wasen't bad, probably $300 total, and that puts the drum next to my work bench thanks to an extra long hose.

Im gonna go give them plain tap water 1 last time before I start feeding them again. Baised on what I understand, I should give fertilizer in water once a week for a week or so before switching to every watering, right?

THanks again

No need to adjust....

(let's stick to per gal for now)
5ml per gallon of PBPG = 590 - 600ppm
5 ml per gallon of CM = 225ppm
5ml per gallon of LK = 70ppm

So after looking at what the ppms are for each different bottle, we can see that even though we are giving the exact same number of milliliters, the ppms differ....so this is why I say that your N-P-K will always be given at higher doses....now ya get it???

Now let's add those numbers to see what we get.... 895ppm is what we would have if we place 5ml of each of those in a gallon of RO water.... But we want to be at 300ppm per gallon on week 2 of veg, so we divide.... Then once into flower you simply replace the PBPG with PBPB.... Just remember not to give more than 5ml per gallon of CM, anytime.... It's up to you if you want to give more than 5ml per gal of LK at any given time....the recommendations say to do so, so that one is up to you....

You don't want to give ferts with every watering....give plain RO water between feedings....

pH is pretty important too....you got that covered???

CGI::::::