It seems as if the nation's attitude towards the economy has a pretty direct relationship to their attitude towards politics, so I'm wondering...what do you guys think? Please be honest.

I believe we will bounce back, wont be over night or over 6 months, but this time next year we will be much better. I think the reason everyone is scared about the economy is becuase it a election year. BOTH!! the canidites try an scare everyone by saying how bad we are and how much we need then or we are going to have a "great depression" Soon as EITHER of the canidites are elected the economy will be better(not back to normal but better)

I started really listening to the candidates because of the economy...it scares the shit out of me and pisses me off at the same time.

i never would have thought it would get this bad, and it's going to get worse...if the usa bounces back in a year or two, it will still be facing an economic apocalypse due to the national debt, trade deficit, and the unfunded liabilities in social security and medicare...the total monetary value of those debts makes the burst real estate bubble look like a bad fart...now the us gov't is in crisis management so dealing with those debts is being put off AGAIN

You're right, Mal. I'm just worried if things get to a great depression level, whoever's in charge will probably declare martial law to keep the people from rioting everywhere...

I honestly did not think "We're Completely Screwed" would be the number one answer.

This whole mess was created by the media starting about a year and a half ago.... About the time the presidential election started.... The media created the uneasy feeling and people stopped spending so much money... Plus, Election years are ALWAYS scary times for businesses...

The media wants a Liberal in command, kind of ironic how their agendas will eventually kill "Freedom of the Press." Stupid.....

Bottom line.... The media created this consumer confidence mess....The media wants Obama elected (for those who don't watch TV)....Obama has the most to gain from a failing economy... String some things together between why things are failing and the Democrat's/MSM's agenda and you'll see why everyone is being scared to death watching the news.

It may take a year, but the economy will recover.... Just let capitalism do its thing.

Things were much worse in the early 1980's. Many people here, including myself were not around then, but the situations were similar.

Credit was very hard to come by, except that was the goal of then Federal Reserve chairman Paul Volker as inflation was was in double digits.

The fact of the matter is, things will get better. But.... It is you and i who will have to push for those gradual changes that will bring forth both a more free nation, and an actual free economy. Truthfully, change of this nature will not be quick. As RebGirl stated in another thread, begin taking action and interest locally. That is how you will garner the quickest change for the better. Do not lose hope, the political hustlers prey on it so that they can promise you something that requires you to change, not the other way around

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They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety will not deserve liberty nor safety and will obtain neither.

Benjamin Franklin

Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that's the stuff life is made of.

Benjamin Franklin

Pink i think we are on the same page.

maybe we should define better!?! Yeah, even after the great depression things got better...then worse...then better...then worse. I was too young to remember the 80's, and Ill take your word for it. But didnt the 90's have a dot.com bust, the now the real estate bust. Maybe better wouldnt be repeating the same greedy mistakes. Unfortunately I think things will get better (i think you mean more buying power from the dollar) but I would bet in my lifetime we see a complete collapse of the dollar. But that doesnt mean we'll all starve. Just have a new beginning with some other fiat money! history will repeat itself! we are just along for the ride!

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"Prohibition... goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." -- Abraham Lincoln December, 1840

"I'm not not licking toads" -Homer Simpson

"Focus on what I invest in, got married to marijuana, yeah, and the connect is my best man" -Jadakiss

Business cycles have always existed in post mercantilist economies. Even PME's had very trying times, although the rich were rarely ever effected (pre revolutionary France is a good reference).

Our current situations are due to the imperfections of humanity. If we or any algorithmic program had clairvoyance, everything would be perfect. This is not a perfect world, and humans as a whole do not always make the best decisions even if it involves their very well being.

The fact remains that capitalism, with both its goods and bads has improved the living conditions of the societies that has embraced it.

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They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety will not deserve liberty nor safety and will obtain neither.

Benjamin Franklin

Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that's the stuff life is made of.

Benjamin Franklin

capitalism isn't improving the lives of many people in poorer countries...it serves the rich first...the blind profit seeking behaviour of capitalism makes errectile dysfunction of a few million rich people a bigger priority than water borne diseases of a few billion poor people


Bill Gates Issues Call For Kinder Capitalism - WSJ.com

Bill Gates Issues Call
For Kinder Capitalism
Famously Competitive,
Billionaire Now Urges
Business to Aid the Poor
By ROBERT A. GUTH
January 24, 2008

Free enterprise has been good to Bill Gates. But today, the Microsoft Corp. chairman will call for a revision of capitalism.

In a speech at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, the software tycoon plans to call for a "creative capitalism" that uses market forces to address poor-country needs that he feels are being ignored.

"We have to find a way to make the aspects of capitalism that serve wealthier people serve poorer people as well," Mr. Gates will tell world leaders at the forum, according to a copy of the speech seen by The Wall Street Journal.

Mr. Gates isn't abandoning his belief in capitalism as the best economic system. But in an interview with the Journal last week at his Microsoft office in Redmond, Wash., Mr. Gates said that he has grown impatient with the shortcomings of capitalism. He said he has seen those failings first-hand on trips for Microsoft to places like the South African slum of Soweto, and discussed them with dozens of experts on disease and poverty. He has voraciously read about those failings in books that propose new approaches to narrowing the gap between rich and poor.

In particular, he said, he's troubled that advances in technology, health care and education tend to help the rich and bypass the poor. "The rate of improvement for the third that is better off is pretty rapid," he said. "The part that's unsatisfactory is for the bottom third -- two billion of six billion."

*snip*

I knew that one of the replies would be from you containing that tone.

The main distinction of the global south from the north is government stability. I shall strike down straw man fallacies with great wrath!

__________________
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety will not deserve liberty nor safety and will obtain neither.

Benjamin Franklin

Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that's the stuff life is made of.

Benjamin Franklin

you didn't say anything about stability when you said "The fact remains that capitalism, with both its goods and bads has improved the living conditions of the societies that has embraced it."

LAY ON MCSTRAWMANDUFF!! And damn'd be him that first cries, 'Hold, enough'!

Of course i did not, that is because i was not referring to the global south. It might have been a good idea to understand the basis of your rebuttals before you present them, that way i would not have to waste time explaining basic concepts to you. If you want to present anti American propaganda, at least do so in a proper manner. It would make for a more lively debate, as well as give me something of substance to contemplate.

Answer me this... Why would i have to refer to the stability of political systems in the global south, when i was in fact describing the global north? It is you who should have been keen enough to cover your tracks, since you were the one to bring it up. Either that, or refrain from barking up the wrong tree.

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They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety will not deserve liberty nor safety and will obtain neither.

Benjamin Franklin

Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that's the stuff life is made of.

Benjamin Franklin

It will bounce back. It always does. The market is just fixing itself.

I hope people learn from this mess and make stricter laws and rules about who gets loans and mortgages. Right now they are giving them to every Joe Schmoe that walks through the door. It's part predaztor lending but it's mostly the fact that Liberals have been making sure these matters are "equal oppurtunity" or "fair lending". Which REALLY means "taking money even though you know you can't afford it" or "I just glimpsed over the small print instead of reading it through".

What ever happened to saving up and working hard to support your family, house, car, etc.? Now everyone thinks they are entitled to this shit (just like healthcare).

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I Love You Robby!

"I love the smell of napalm in the morning. You know, one time we had a hill bombed, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' dink body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like, victory. Someday this war's gonna end.."

- Kilgore (Apocalypse Now)

This is the proverbial fuel to the fire, with respects to the current economic crisis. Yes investment firms were over leveraged, but there was a spike in sub prime debt to encourage this trend.

I wonder the same thing.

That is why you cannot try to provide equal rules to everyone. By doing so, you are hoping that everyone will do the right thing, or at least try to do so. When this fails to materialize, margins are called and the people who are debating me cry foul when they are the ones calling for equal opportunity.

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They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety will not deserve liberty nor safety and will obtain neither.

Benjamin Franklin

Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that's the stuff life is made of.

Benjamin Franklin

"The fact remains that capitalism, with both its goods and bads has improved the living conditions of the societies that has embraced it."


This "Fact" is completely subjective. For some having the creature comforts, so called 'basic sanitation', capitalist goods and services, is an improvement. Not for all. There are people who grow there own foods, make their own clothes, shit in the woods, and drink water from the streams. All the while smiling as much if not more than Joe the robot watching the television.

And there are villagers the world over attempting to embrace capitalism only to have factories pull out of their towns, leaving them with televisions they cannot afford to plug into a wall.

Yes capitalism has advanced and improved life for SOME people in the societies that have embraced it. I do not think the same can be said for the whole of the societies.
Just as the herb has improved many lives it has touched, but not all...
but definitely mine

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"If we want a beautiful garden, we must first have a blueprint in the imagination, a vision" - His Holiness the Dalai Lama

My mistake, I could have sworn health care IS a right, ya know.....the RIGHT to be able to see a doctor when you're sick or injured instead of having to stay home and suck it up? Maybe? It could be just me. People aren't entitled to much, but having your physical well being maintained is DEFINITELY a right, especially when it's threatened by something that's not your fault.

But then, the government has never been a fan of health care in general. Kinda like how veterans often get the total dick when they come home, because they can't afford health care and the government won't do shit to help them.

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Peace is a lie. Freedom is a lie. Most everything you think you know is a lie. Get used to it. Get funkified instead.

Capitalism, as I've said before, is outdated and needs to be completely overhauled.

Just because it's the best thing we've had, it doesn't mean it's the best we can ever hope to achieve.

No matter what, everything that exists in our universe is a product of it, and will constantly be revised and improved or even replaced by something better.

400 or so years is a good run, but it's time to find something better.

Happiness does not equate to standard of living.

The societies you site as example have not truly embraced capitalism. Care to give some specific examples?

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They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety will not deserve liberty nor safety and will obtain neither.

Benjamin Franklin

Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that's the stuff life is made of.

Benjamin Franklin

Yes, but have yet to state with detail why it should.

Social democracy is what you seek. It will have a tough time in regards to competition with capitalism. Capitalism is based solely on competition, you will find it hard to replace a system such as this without global totalitarian order...

__________________
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety will not deserve liberty nor safety and will obtain neither.

Benjamin Franklin

Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that's the stuff life is made of.

Benjamin Franklin

What makes health care a right? All that you state above is a plea to pity.

__________________
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety will not deserve liberty nor safety and will obtain neither.

Benjamin Franklin

Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that's the stuff life is made of.

Benjamin Franklin

Practically all of western europe view health care as a right. They view their citizens as resources that has the potential to earn capital. A healthy and educated country has proven to be successful time and time again. I observed between all these arguments, it's either for capitalism or against. This makes zero sense to me considering a country like Switzerland, one of the most capitalist countries in the world, has a socialized health care system. With combination of efforts from the private health care, as well as the government providing more medicare, I cannot see why there isn't viable solution.

I'd rather pay for someones health care than a few soldiers "vacations" to be posted in Germany for a few years. Or their living expenses. Or tax benefits. The only money soldiers are bring in is government spending for defense contracts. Otherwise they are the same type of burden as citizens would when it comes to health care.

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Happiness only real when shared

This is a good point, and i am glad you brought it up. Most of western Europe does have care such as this, as does a large part of eastern Europe. Yet think of the history of government in Europe, who for a rather long time depended on monarchy to govern. Our (American) culture as a whole was developed with less of a dependence on government in its conception, which is why such measures of Universal Health Care have met harsh critics.

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They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety will not deserve liberty nor safety and will obtain neither.

Benjamin Franklin

Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that's the stuff life is made of.

Benjamin Franklin

I support the idea of a resource based economy and society.

And, the only way that can happen is if Capitalism fails.

You're right, trying to compete with Capitalism is like taking on a formidable opponent on his home turf. You still have a chance of winning, but it's about the size of a grain of sand.