Psychocat has a point...you're right about how it's probably usually an accident, and it may even be viewed as a tragedy, but not ENOUGH of a tragedy. The children seem to just get shrugged off as collateral damage. And regardless of whether or not the killing is intentional, the point is that far too many innocent people die because of the fighting. Just how many of the Muslims who die do you think are bloodthirsty terrorists, and how many do you think are just people wanting to living a quiet life with their family? It's probably a pretty unbalanced ratio.

I agree with you that, with the present arrangement, Islam is the more irrational faith (by a hair). But let's say it was the other way around, that the Muslims kept Christian lands in a vice grip and have for the last 60 or so years? You'd see some Christian terrorist organizations, that's for sure, striking the foreign oppressors in the name of God.

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"All murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."-Voltaire

When a bomb is dropped, or a missile is launched at targets, all deaths are intentional. Bombs and missiles do just what they were created to do..kill. Labeling the killing of children and innocent civilians something other than murder, is just a way to make it seem like an accident, or "collateral damage", is just part of the game. Anyway you look at it, it boils down to murder, and nothing more. Wars do nothing but breed hate and lead to other problems down the road.

I am amazed at how people look at the world today, truly amazed. Somebody always finds some kind of excuse to justify the murder, raping and pillaging of another country, state, home, and person. These are people who have just as much right to live than you or I do, no matter what they believe. That's the gift of being free. Now when your thoughts turn into actions that cause another one loss or hurt, then you should be held accountable for your actions.

This whole preemptive war idea is just mind blowing. I mean I could have the same mentality and just attack anyone in public who I see as a threat to my well being. Does that sound like a good idea? Of course it don't, because it is insane to think that way. If I were deliberately attacked then that is a different story. Even if I was attacked by someone, I sure wouldn't go after his neighbor for it. I would handle it with the same man, or woman who attacked me.

Anyway, back on the subject of the thread. It is true the intermingling by the US in other countries has bred a lot of hate towards the US. The US is not innocent and has it's hands in a lot of dirty laundry. When a country is led by people who live in a life of blackmail, greed, and lies, how do you think that country is going to be ran?

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banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a
revolution before tomorrow morning - Henry Ford

Deliberately attacking from where there are children and non-combatants placed, knowing full well that their enemy will look like murderers when they retaliate, is another common earmark of Islamic warfare. War is hell, but those who wage it in this fashion are beyond despicable.

How much more "irrational" Islam is compared to Christianity isn't the central issue - it's their actions that people notice. What is boils down to is why this little strip of sand in the desert, called Gaza, has to threaten the peace and well-being of the entire world. If it wasn't that, would it be something similar? If a civiliztion does not move forward, it goes backwards - and trys to take everyone else with it.

Despite, or because of, the Iraq war, the extremist rhetoric and terrorist actions seem to be less pronounced lately. Let's hope this is a signal of better days to come, but it's hard to say. There's some intelligent ex-Muslims out there who are speaking up, but not enough at this point.

You're allowing yourself to be sidelined by tags,Islam, Christian, it's all just bullshit.
There is no reason for the wests attempts to control the politics and policies of other countries, the simple fact is that it is never in the best interests of the country involved.
The west is guilty of some of the dirtiest games ever played and thier attempts to place puppet goverments , the continued double standards, the disregard for anything short of complete dominance and simple greed have created the modern day "terrorist".
It's easy to label them as religious fanatics and show video of a few nutters but the truth goes so much deeper than that.

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Fate decides who walks into your life, you decide who you let stay, who you let walk away, and who you refuse to let walk out.

I totaly agree with you, though most people seem to forget about history and go on whats going on the world now.

War on Iraq is a prime example of pupet goverment - Sadam was put into place to protect the oil fileds, this is the only reason we went to war against him - WMD's where never found.

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Al Qaida is only heard after 911. It is created to take the responsibility of 911. Before 911, Al Qaida was only a data base in internet to represent Mujahideen. Why created a new term? Because everybody knows that Mujahideen was supported and trained by CIA. To prevent people to link 911 to US intelligence they created a fictional Al Qaida.

Quote, "A norwegian professor believes al-Qaida is a Pentagon-fiction:

Feilmelding

Al Qaida exists where US intelligence dominate. Al Qaida in US when Bush need excuse to activate Mid-east war. That is 911 attack. Al Qaida is everywhere in Iraq now to bomb innocent civilians when US occupies Iraq. Strange to say, under the Saddam regime, there is no Al Qaida. Al Qaida seems only exist where the regime being controlled by US. So we see no Al qaida in Syria and Iran. No wonder Assad doubt it:

Syrias president questions the existence of al-Qaida:

May 26, 2003
«Syria Denies Existence of Al Qaeda»

«KUWAIT CITY (Talon News) -- Syrian President Bashar Assad revealed in a newspaper interview on Sunday that he does not believe there is a terrorist group called al Qaeda, the organization widely believed to be the perpetrators of the hijackings on September 11, 2001 as well as the recent attacks in Saudi Arabia and Morocco.»

«"Is there really an entity called al Qaeda? It was in Afghanistan, but is it there anymore?" Assad asked.»

«Assad speculated about the existence of al Qaeda and its notorious leader Usama bin Laden in a Kuwaiti newspaper called Al-Anba. »

«Nevertheless, questioning the existence of the al Qaeda terrorist network is very popular in Arab countries. Many people in these countries believe that the United States has hyperbolized the danger of al Qaeda as a means for portraying Muslims as violent and dangerous.»

GOPUSA -- File Not Found

You didn't acknowledge the key point I made...that a reversal of the status quo would most likely result in Christian terrorism. The U.S. does not engage in guerilla-level terrorism because it does not need to, sucking as hungrily as it does at the teat of world power. Instead, its government strong-arms any divergent nation. The terrorists are no more amoral than Congress--they're both deadly groups of self-servers. Actually, what the terrorists want is freedom from Western/Christian paternalistic handling of their affairs, and all Congress wants is, as Tony Soprano would say, "motherfucking, cocksucking money." The former strikes me as a touch more admirable goal.

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"All murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."-Voltaire

ok again i will say this

the difference between a patriot and a terrorist is simpley POINT OF VEIW.

dont you think that when Sherman made his march to the sea, burning Atlanta on the way he was labeled a terrorist by the people living in the south?

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i know people who are not afraid to smile, and bein happy is still in style - ekoostik hookah "bone"

sometimes i like to sit in my hand till it goes numb, that way when i masturbate it feals like someone else playin with my penis

as is usually the case, you seem to miss the point entirely. when you couch a group's aims in the most extreme terms, any goal can be made to seem honorable or evil. these disparate groups are really after the same thing - POWER. the ends being equal, it is the means by which we should judge which is the more admirable cause. each side is fighting to gain control over a wider swath of the population, one through the use of economic and political power and the other by the indiscriminate use of explosives. now tell us again how you can see any cause to admire a group that advocates strapping on an explosive vest and wandering into a crowded marketplace.

the west may have a grand love affair with the underdog, but that doesn't make the cowardly actions of the little guy any more admirable. can you honestly say that hiding behind children and women's skirts while lobbing bombs at noncombatants is any more honorable than the horrors of collateral damage?

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Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.

"your deeds show your character".......StinkyAttic.

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Haze(y) Grow Log:
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"Your deeds show your character."-StinkyAttic

I wouldn't be so quick to think that I know what Islamofascist terrorists really want.

Fuck "Tony Soprano". Organized criminals are sociopathic, degenerate subhumans - but not even close to being the lowlife scum as Islamofascists are.

How long did the affleunt west believe it could manipulate the politics of other countries before the whole shit pile blew up in thier faces ?
Dirty games using underhand tactics lead to explosive situations.

It all comes down to greed and the hunger for power.

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Fate decides who walks into your life, you decide who you let stay, who you let walk away, and who you refuse to let walk out.

so manipulation warrants murder? the return on investing billions in building infrastructures around the world and actually having the audacity to expect a return on that investment is suicide bombers and decapitations?

for that matter, how are we assessing affluence? are we taking into account the fortunes in oil revenues flooding into so many of these countries? fortunes squandered on disproportionately large militaries and luxuries for the few while the masses are kept in ignorance.

and just how far back are we going with this? are we counting europe's colonial period, where those nations spread disease and war around the globe? are we taking into account the centuries of aggression surrounding most every civilization, next to which our present sins seem downright peaceful? or are we just blaming those evil americans today, for attempting to spread their ideology around the world through economic leverage and political maneuvering?

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Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.

The support of Pinochet caused thousands of deaths and yet you forget it was US "manipulation" that allowed him to sieze power
In the US you have the right to shoot invaders of your home. isn't that something the inhabitants of other countries should also have a right to ?

Investing in US companies to rebuild what they destroyed.
Isn't that a bit like me knocking down my neighbours house for no good reason then offering to rebuild it for him, as long as he pays of course.

The attempts to control the fortunes of countries outside our own are what allow the corrupt regimes to continue to thrive.
What has it to do with us how another man spends his money ?
Is our society any different when the majority serve an elite minority.
Do you truly believe that the wests idea of democracy is any less corrupt than those you rail against.

Since America and Britain helped to create so many puppet goverments it falls to them to carry the can for the consequences of thier actions.
Also , I don't know if you realise but the question of the OP directly adresses the issue of the US and the existence of Al Quiada.

No country has the right to impose it's will upon another.

As for history and conflict , it just goes to show how stupid the human race really is

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Fate decides who walks into your life, you decide who you let stay, who you let walk away, and who you refuse to let walk out.

Al Qaeda is More of a U.S. Propaganda Campaign than a Real Organization
12/24/08
Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook wrote:

Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/ju...7.development:

Former National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski told the Senate that the war on terror is "a mythical historical narrative"
www.senate.gov - This page cannot be found..

And see this Los Angeles Times Article, reviewing a BBC documentary entitled "The Power of Nightmares" <http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1037.htm>, which shows that the threat from Al Qaeda has been vastly overblown (and see this article <http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1207-26.htm> on the people within the U.S. who are behind the hype).
Is Al Qaeda Just a Bush Boogeyman?

Not only has the U.S. government hyped Al Qaeda, but it has issued numerous fake terror alerts <http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2007/02/everyone-knows-bush-has-issued-fake.html> to scare people.

George Washington's Blog: Al Qaeda is More of a U.S. Propaganda Campaign than a Real Organization

I was expressing it in the most extreme terms, as you say. You're right--it really comes down to power and the struggle of two factions over it. I'm saying that neither side is moral or amoral because they both want power at the expense of the other side's life/dignity/etc., and use violent and often horrific means to achieve it. I made the point that I did because it is too often assumed on these boards, even by those who oppose the wars, that the West are the good guys and the insurgents are villains. I was trying to show that that isn't the case by pointing out that at least the insurgents are fighting for power they have been deprived of, whereas the U.S./West, etc. are just trying to keep everyone else's balls on the mantlepiece. I'm not saying the insurgents are honourable--neither side is--just that they are the freedom-starved underdogs.

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"All murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."-Voltaire

Al Qaida's resource

Any resistence needs resource. From money to ammunition. Vietcon had the support from two big powers - Soviet and China.

Where did the support of Al Qaida come from? Not from Saddam's Iraq, Syria, Iran. If there was, US already beat the drum to invade. Al Qaida only prosperous in Iraq after it is occupied by US army. Because they are supported by pentagon and intelligence. Bin Laden's resistence is known as Mujahiddem before 911. Everybody knows it was trained and supported by CIA. Al Qaida was only a data base in communication for Mujahiddem before 911. After 911, to prevent people to link CIA from Mujahiddem, they created Al Qaida and since blame everything on it.

But where did Al Qaida get the resource from? No nation dare to offend US - a super power. So the support must be from either from Alladin's magic Lantern or US secret budget.

Quote, The head of Pakistan’s ISI, General Mahmud Ahmed, had ordered to wire $100,000 to the leader of 911 attack, Mohammed Atta through the hand of Omar Sheikh. This has been confirmed by the director of the FBI’s financial crimes unit, Dennis Lormel.

Quote, " Musharraf names 9/11 suspect as possible British asset
Fails to mention links to 9/11, ISI, CIA
By Devlin Buckley
© Copyright 2006,

Musharraf names 9/11 suspect as possible British asset

Who supplies weapon to Al Qaida?

What excuse the Neocon uses to have US troops staying in Iraq? Insurgence and riot. Although some people said Iraq war is like Vietnam war, it is not. There were two big countries: Soviet Union and China behind the Vietnam. It was their support of weapons and economic aids which helped North Vietnam to win the war. There was none such support for Iraq. Iran and Syria, are much weaker and smaller than Soviet Union and China then. They themselves know they are the next target of the Neocon. They dare not to offend US by supporting the Iraq insurgence. To stay in Iraq, Neocon try to make a mess in Iraq - they need a civil war of Iraq. "

Then who support the insurgence and militias and Al Qaida the weapon they need? To my analysis, there is only one suspect: US. which has motives and ability.
The following news proved it's no others than US supplied weapon to the Iraqi insurgence and militias and Al Qaida, though media use the word "missing".

Quote, "ABC News: 190,000 AK-47s Sent to Iraq Are Missing

A young boy aims an AK-47 assault rifle during clashes between ... The Pentagon cannot account for 190,000 AK-47 rifles and pistols given to Iraqi ...

ABC News - ABC News

Do you have the conception how many is 190,000? It can arm a force bigger than the whole US occupation troop in Iraq. (170,000 after surge) Whom do you think are the receipants of these "missing" weapons?

did that abc news piece say where the US got the ak's from, since those weapons are not US made.

__________________
"I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer."
Benjamin Franklin
i'd rather not be told by the all powerful state how far i may rise and how much i can accumulate. i'd rather have the freedom to fail than the mediocrity of an enforced comfortable poverty. a free market allows such a life. all else is slavery.DelusionsofNormalty
.

1. The AK-47 was from US supply. That's abc news proved.

2. The common practise is to trade with East European country, a big source is from Albania. "The kla: gangsters, terrorists, and the CIA
Drug money was also laundered in the Albanian pyramids (ponzi schemes) which mushroomed ... of Northern Albania with the support of Western banking interests. ... largely small arms including Kalashnikov AK-47 rifles, RPK and PPK machine-guns, ... The proceeds of the narcotics trade has enabled the KLA to rapidly "

3. Why did they supply AK-47 not US ammunition to Iraqis? Because AK-47 is cheaper? Or they knew the weapon would go to the hands of Al Qaida and some one like you would ask this kind of question?

Seriously, this is conspiracy theory BS.

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Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that's the stuff life is made of.

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im sorry, but what is the source behind your rant?

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land of the free, because of the brave.

because the ak-47 is a much better gun than the m-16!!!

and an ak-47 is a gun, not a type of ammunition. it shoots a 7.62mm round as opposed to a 5.56mm round that the m-16 shoots.


i must go back and read this entire thread before i comment further.



-shake

__________________
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"some of my sweets be tight and some of my sweets be fucked up, but all of my sweets gon' blow so killa smoke gets sucked up..." -Bun B

"But, when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security." -Deceleration of Independence

Source? All are truths. If there was a news of suicde bomber killed 56 civilians in market or Mosque, then it must have happened in US occupied Iraq not under Saddam's regime. If there was a news of terror attack, it must have been in Pakistan, Afghanistan or US occupied Iraq not in Syria or Iran or Saddam's regime because Al Qaida only survives in country where US intelligence dominated. They are supported and protected by US intelligence and its ally. That's why Bin Laden can never been caught.

Al Qaida (or most other terrrorist group) exists where US intelligence dominates. Al Qaida in US when Bush needs excuse to activate Mid-east war. That was 911 attack. Al Qaida is everywhere in Iraq to bomb innocent civilians when US occupies Iraq. Strange to say, under the Saddam regime, there was no Al Qaida. Al Qaida seems only exist where the regime being controlled by US. So we see no Al qaida in Syria and Iran. But they appear to attack ordinary people when the government either is controlled by US intelligence or supported by US intelligence. That's why you see Al Qaida attacks in US, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, in Iraq (after it is occupied by US). Because where they are protected by the intelligence, worked as a whip to beat people. When government want money and power, they beat the people with this whip (Al Qaida terror attack) People feel hurt then give up their civil rights and money to the government. DOJ got the Patriot Act. Pentagon got fat budget and Mid-east war.

Man that is some funny crazy stuff. i used to sit beside a guy like u..
everyday a new crazy idea bout kennedy or that reagan was in with the devil..
ended up killin himself..
went mad..


smoke more..
go for a walk dude..

Peace and Love to all...