Obama may prosecute over torture | theage.com.au

Obama may prosecute over torture

* Ewen Macaskill, Washington
* April 23, 2009
* Page 1 of 2 | Single Page View

IN A surprise about-turn, US President Barack Obama says members of the Bush administration who approved the use of waterboarding and other harsh interrogation measures could face prosecution.

Mr Obama said his Attorney-General, Eric Holder, was conducting an investigation and the final decision rested with him. Mr Obama referred to four Bush administration memos he released last week detailing CIA interrogation measures, saying they "reflected, in my view, us losing our moral bearings".
Obama open to torture charges

US President Barack Obama said he is open to prosecuting officials who laid the legal groundwork for harsh interrogation of detained terror suspects.

Mr Obama also lifted his opposition to a separate congressional inquiry. Last night, White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said the President would like to see the inquiry modelled on the 9/11 commission. Mr Obama reiterated that there would be no prosecutions of CIA agents who carried out the interrogation of suspected al-Qaeda members at Guantanamo Bay and secret prisons around the world.

But for the first time he opened up the possibility that those in the Bush administration who gave the go-ahead for waterboarding and other interrogation techniques could be prosecuted.

"For those who carried out some of these operations within the four corners of legal opinions or guidance that had been provided from the White House, I do not think it's appropriate for them to be prosecuted," Mr Obama said. "With respect to those who formulated those legal decisions, I would say that that is going to be more of a decision for the Attorney-General, within the parameters of various laws, and I don't want to prejudge that."

White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel said only three days ago that the Administration did not favour prosecutions of those who had devised the policy, and Mr Gibbs echoed that on Monday.

Mr Obama again indicated that he remained opposed to politicisation of the issue, saying it might hamper national security operations. But he added: "If and when there needs to be a further accounting of what took place during this period, I think for Congress to examine ways that it can be done in a bipartisan fashion … that would probably be a more sensible approach to take."

Republicans reacted angrily. "What happened to him talking about not looking backward, about looking forward?" said Republican senator John Ensign of Nevada. "I think it's a huge mistake," said Republican senator Lindsey Graham. "If we start criminalising legal advice given to a past president, advice you may disagree with, that's on the margins of legal thought, in your opinion, you've really harmed the presidency."

Mr Obama's own Director of National Intelligence privately told his workforce last week that the now-banned methods had produced valuable information.

"High-value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al-Qaeda organisation that was attacking this country," Dennis Blair wrote in an April 16 memo to staff.

A version of the memo was distributed to the media without that line. But in a statement to the White House summarising his views, Mr Blair said: "The damage (the interrogation methods) have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

__________________
"It's not a health issue, it's a wealth issue."

Mr. Otruama is at it again. I realy think this guy hates americans- and our freedoms given to us by the constitution.

It will prove just how crazy a society we live in if they don't prosecute these torturers and other criminals from the Bush administration and continue to arrest and prosecute medical or recreational marijuana/cannabis users. Cannabis users don't torture as far as I've had experience. We're not perfect, but come no where close to that.

Speak for yourself. I smoke weed daily but if I discovered a member of a terrorist organization who was planning some terrorist act, I would happily torture them in order to get the needed information to protect American lives.

Obama is the fucking criminal here for giving CIA secrets away to the world! How exactly does that benefit our national security? I see nothing wrong with torturing our enemies in order to gain the knowledge to protect ourselves from said enemies.

I suppose we should just hand em a joint, drop to our knees and start sucking their dick until they give us the information we need... That is far more humane, except for one small problem, it wouldn't work.

__________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
-Thomas Jefferson

"How much pain they have cost us, the evils which have never happened."
-Thomas Jefferson

For the sake of debate, I suppose you don't believe in the doctrine of cruel and unusual punishment either then? Torture has never gotten to the truth. Just look at the Inquisition. I suppose you'd support that too? To each their own as they say.

And to qualify myself, if you harmed mine, you'd suffer the worst of retribution if I had to take the law into my own hands. Still, it would be tempered by the degree of the crime. Will the government torture someone to find out where a grow is? Do you support that? Where do you draw the line?

Your comparing torturing war captives to religious persecution? We aren't talking about cruel and unusual punishment in it's traditional sense.

Torture has never gotten results? How exactly do you know that?

We aren't talking about them torturing citizens to find out where a grow op is. The people being interrogated were war prisoners, enemies of the state, not American citizens. If they ever began torturing American citizens I would speak up and fight against that, but that isn't what were talking about here.

Not to mention, why should we treat our enemies better than they treat us. Do you not remember the beheading videos of American's in the Middle East? Do you think our enemies give a shit about how they get information from their captives?

__________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
-Thomas Jefferson

"How much pain they have cost us, the evils which have never happened."
-Thomas Jefferson

There's a reason why all the civilized nations signed the Geneva Convention. Because its wrong to torture anyone and the knowledge gained from torturing is usually worthless. If we resort ot torture then we should just stop all pretenses of civilized nation. Go back to the wild west days and we just shoot anyone we don't like.

Case in point: The Raw Story | Cheney pushed torture techniques to find Iraq, Qaeda tie: report

And, no we don't behead either. At least not the we are aware of.

as far as i am concerned, terrorists and pirates don't deserve to be treated by the Geneva conventions. they're not soldiers, they're rabid dogs and should be shot on sight.

also, if i had to water-board someone so i could prevent them from cutting off your head, i'd do it in a minute.

this is just another tactic by the Obama administration to keep us looking at Bush so we won't see the bullshit that's really going on!
it's just sleight of hand, a dog and pony show to distract us while Obama bin Laden sells America to the highest bidder.

__________________


bozo,
peace, love, dope

'it's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice'
'man made alcohol, God made weed, who do you trust?'
"Some of my finest hours have been spent on my back veranda smoking hemp and observing as far as my eye could see."---Thomas Jefferson- 1781
bozo's mother cab, bozo's bubble cloner

The Complete guide to Sick Plants,pH, and Pest troubles! MynameStitch

So much for the belief in innocent until proven guilty.
If I were to torture someone I am pretty sure they would have a breaking point at which time they will tell me whatever I want them to.
This does not make what they say the truth.

Torture is a thing of the dark ages and really has no place in a so called civilised society. How can you denounce Saddam or others for using something and then go right ahead and use the very same thing ,wouldn't that make you a hypocrite ?

The people responsible for giving the go ahead to torture should be treat as criminals.

__________________
Fate decides who walks into your life, you decide who you let stay, who you let walk away, and who you refuse to let walk out.

you can't bring a knife to a gun fight, these people will blow up your mother and your daughter
simply because they don't believe in Allah, and then they'll cut your friggin' head off.

they don't play by the same rules as we do, hell, they don't have any rules!

i hope they don't detonate a nuke here in America before people like you start to
get it.

__________________


bozo,
peace, love, dope

'it's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice'
'man made alcohol, God made weed, who do you trust?'
"Some of my finest hours have been spent on my back veranda smoking hemp and observing as far as my eye could see."---Thomas Jefferson- 1781
bozo's mother cab, bozo's bubble cloner

The Complete guide to Sick Plants,pH, and Pest troubles! MynameStitch

This really smacks of ignorance and xenophobia.

__________________
Fate decides who walks into your life, you decide who you let stay, who you let walk away, and who you refuse to let walk out.

Xenophobia is an unreasonable fear of foreigners. I think the killing of 2,000 or so American citizens makes the fear reasonable.

What exactly was wrong with his statement? I failed to see where he said Muslims, he simply said terrorists which is simply a portion of the Muslim population.

__________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
-Thomas Jefferson

"How much pain they have cost us, the evils which have never happened."
-Thomas Jefferson

these people will blow up your mother and your daughter
simply because they don't believe in Allah

That does give a very clear indication of the object of his post.
I don't know of too many Christians that praise Allah .
Perhaps xenophobia was the wrong choice of word since his fears are in fact more to do with religion.

However , neither his post nor yours is really on topic.

How it is supposed to relate to the question of wether torture is okay as long as it's us doing the torturing is beyond me but I'm sure he will enlighten us.

BTW
I can be a pedant too
Could you please hilight the point in his post where he mentions "terrorists", he didn't, he used the very vague "these people".

__________________
Fate decides who walks into your life, you decide who you let stay, who you let walk away, and who you refuse to let walk out.

There you go psyco, he mentioned it in his first reply to the OP.


Seeing as these extremist seem to be fighting a holy war, is statement was not at all off base. And yes, they have already blown up Americans mothers, daughters, sons, moms wives, etc as well as many other nationalities both on 9/11 and other terrorist attacks around the world. Their entire hatred for Western Civilization is based on their extreme religious views. Hell, their motivation is that Allah has promised them nearly 100 virgins if they sacrifice their life in a terrorist attack.

How exactly is this not relevant? These are the people who were tortured under the Bush administration, these are our enemies. How the fuck is it not important to the topic?

We aren't going over their kidnapping innocent children and water boarding them, these are terrorists, enemy combatants, most of which have been exiled from their native country meaning they are no longer protected under the Geneva Convention.

__________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
-Thomas Jefferson

"How much pain they have cost us, the evils which have never happened."
-Thomas Jefferson

You assume an awful lot.
You assume they are guilty.
You assume they were caught in combat
You assume they are terrorists.

Once more I will ask "How does that equate with the very American edict of innocent until proven guilty" ?

If a member of your own family was accused of a crime would you advocate the use of torture ?

How can you trust any information given under those conditions ?

Are you not trying to blur the lines by saying it's okay to torture certain people but not others ?
Where do you draw the line ?
Should waterboarding be used in all investigations , hell why not go back to the old days of policing and get out the rubber hoses.

Do you understand that you cannot denounce an act that you yourself are commiting , regardless of who the victim is ?

__________________
Fate decides who walks into your life, you decide who you let stay, who you let walk away, and who you refuse to let walk out.

We are talking about extreme circumstances in a time of war. Exceptions are easily made in times of war.

There may be a few low level enemy combatants mistaken for high level officers who were tortured, that is simply an unfortunate event. Wars are nasty and they will never be completely civilized.

I'm not saying all information gained from torture is legitimate, however, some of it surely is. Innocent until proven guilty deals with American courts, it isn't required to carry over to war tribunals and war prisoners.

They aren't protected by our laws and Constitution.

__________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
-Thomas Jefferson

"How much pain they have cost us, the evils which have never happened."
-Thomas Jefferson

If ,as you claim they are prisoners of war then surely that is a case for the Geneva Convention ?

Please clarify this for me.

How can someone claim the moral high ground and denounce a practice that they themselves use ? Isn't that a tad contradictory ?

__________________
Fate decides who walks into your life, you decide who you let stay, who you let walk away, and who you refuse to let walk out.

Here is a site with the text of the Geneva Convention in regard to war prisoners.

The prisoners we are talking about here are not protected under the Geneva Convention.

__________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
-Thomas Jefferson

"How much pain they have cost us, the evils which have never happened."
-Thomas Jefferson

I apologize to you psycho for giving you negative rep for the xenophobia comment especially since the dude hasn't responded to defend himself. I assumed he was talking about the Muslim extremist since he mentioned terrorists in his first post, however, he knows for sure, I'm just making an assumption.

The inappropriate use of strong words like xenophobia is simply a huge pet peeve of mine.

__________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
-Thomas Jefferson

"How much pain they have cost us, the evils which have never happened."
-Thomas Jefferson

i didn't defend myself because i've dealt with enough left-wingers that insist on
playing by the rules while the jihadists continue killing innocent people.

the truth is, some of these people will never get it, they'll just continue to insist
that we are wrong while they themselves turn the other cheek. i guess they just
don't realize that that only gives the jihadists a better angle to cut thier friggin
heads off.

if some of their family is killed in the next attack maybe then they'll get it.

i'll say it again, you can't apply the rules of boxing to a cage fight!

__________________


bozo,
peace, love, dope

'it's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice'
'man made alcohol, God made weed, who do you trust?'
"Some of my finest hours have been spent on my back veranda smoking hemp and observing as far as my eye could see."---Thomas Jefferson- 1781
bozo's mother cab, bozo's bubble cloner

The Complete guide to Sick Plants,pH, and Pest troubles! MynameStitch

How do you know it has?

So, if our own soldiers are war prisoners, or enemies of the state, then it would be OK to torture American Soldiers?

Because you lead by example. Do you not remember what our Government did to it's own citizens? The tuskegee experiment, ruby ridge, waco, rainbow farms, japanese during ww2, war on drugs, and the list goes on and on. Do you think our "Leaders" give a shit about us?

__________________
It is well that the people of the nation do not understand our
banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a
revolution before tomorrow morning - Henry Ford

Which we had plent of intelligence before this ever happened and failed miserably to protect the American people.

Pure propaganda

How do you know what went on over there?

__________________
It is well that the people of the nation do not understand our
banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a
revolution before tomorrow morning - Henry Ford

Lets see how the pro-torture groups feel once they capture some of our troops in Afganistan and attempt to extract information from them using the same torture techniques. .

and when they're done laughing at the stupid Americans and their stupid rules,
they'll just behead our troops.

__________________


bozo,
peace, love, dope

'it's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice'
'man made alcohol, God made weed, who do you trust?'
"Some of my finest hours have been spent on my back veranda smoking hemp and observing as far as my eye could see."---Thomas Jefferson- 1781
bozo's mother cab, bozo's bubble cloner

The Complete guide to Sick Plants,pH, and Pest troubles! MynameStitch