Buds are are jacked up. Please help. (Possible TMV)

Discussion in 'Plant Problems' started by snowking, Mar 5, 2010.

  1. snowking

    snowking Registered

    This is my 2nd try with some White Rhino from the Green House Seed Co. The last batch I saved about half of it, and gave the rest to a friend to make some hash. My plants are screwed up and I'm at a loss to figure it out on my own. I've been lurking a half dozen forums for a year and I've never seen anyone talk about Tobacco Mosaic Virus until today. I've definitely seen some sideways leaf curl lately on a plant or two.

    I don't know how TMV manifests itself in buds. My plants are ready to harvest right now, and they are looking sad. The tops of most of them are so soft and flexible that you can bend the top 2" down 90 degrees, and then rotate it around in a circle. The buds have morphed into an odd shape. Plants that were just about done, with red hairs on the top, have shot out new "flowers" with white hairs all over them. I've taken pictures but it still seems really hard to see what I'm trying to describe.

    Last time I assumed it was some type of plant stress manifesting itself. (light burn, nute burn, or pot bound roots.) After reading a little bit about TMV I realized that I have seen some sideways twisted leafs for the first time on that last grow. I just haven't seen anyone really describe what the fully mature buds look like, when infected.

    The last time I noticed the structure of the buds was dramatically morphed. Everything got all loose and flexible too.

    On Pic2 you can kind of see how the top is done and has red hairs, but on the left side a new "flower" is exploding up and out and has new white hairs on it. I'm wondering if it might be more helpful if I take pictures from further out instead of close-up.

    The 4th pic has just a mini explosion of new white flowers blowing out everywhere on the top. This doesn't look anything like a proper, healthy, mature bud.

    I'm gonna grab my camera and go to work, see if I can get some pix that show more clearly what I'm talking about.

    Any help would be appreciated. thanks

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  2. TurboALLWD

    TurboALLWD Registered+

    I just found a 2g sage bud that was in the shape of the 4th pic you posted, it appeared perfect though, no difference in the hairs or calyxes. It had grown out a lot more horizontal than vertical. Didn't check the trich's but I will the next time I see one like it. I bet theres not much thc in the new buds unless harvest is held off and there would be too much degradation of thc in the rest of the bud to make it worth holding off on harvesting. just my opinion after toking on some AK47 :stoned:
  3. snowking

    snowking Registered

    The first pic is a slightly better shot of the interior structure of the buds. Still hard to make out in all the green. The structure of the buds are long and slender with leaves that overlap like rose petals.

    The second shot is just a demonstration of how soft the tops are. I pushed the top 2 inches of that plant over 90 degrees very easily. Also, about half way through flower it seemed to me like the trichome production was down. It still looks that way to me. I've grown other strains that were just sick with trikes. Even the last batch of White Rhino had more than these. Something is wrong.

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  4. canni13is

    canni13is Registered+

    Tobacco mosaic virus only effects the solanaceae plant family which cannabis is not part of. im not sure if this is normal or not. it sure looks normal and healthy
  5. canni13is

    canni13is Registered+

  6. bigtopsfinn

    bigtopsfinn Registered+

    Looks over-fertilized to me. Doesn't TMV "bleach" half of the leaf? I don't see that in your pics, just a lot of tip burn...

    Fill out the troubleshooting form at the top of this forum, and copy and paste it here.
  7. WashougalWonder

    WashougalWonder Registered+

    I agree with Finn
  8. snowking

    snowking Registered

    Indoor grow, coco coir, drain-to-waste, tap water @ 200ppms, nute Ph 6.0-6.3, nutes: GH 3part, Liquid Karma, CalMag+, GH Liquid KoolBloom, hand water every 3 days, 600W HPS lights @ about 16" (air cooled), room temps 68-79, ventilation: charcoal fan filter with can fan, air exchange @ 1 per minute.

    Genetics: Green House Seed Co - White Rhino. Clones taken from mothers grown from WR seeds that I popped personally.

    Are my plants over-fertilized? Yes. They are. Does over fertilization result in completely deformed buds with super soft flexible stems? I hope the answer is YES.

    Two threads that sent me down the "possible TMV" path, only problem is that these only have pictures of problematic leaves. No one discusses how fully matured flowers are affected.

    Persistent leaf issue...A phenotype trait or other? - International Cannagraphic Magazine Forums

    I believe this person has the same problem I do, and better pictures (and they are fully flowered). When you look at these pictures, notice that instead of a fan leaf with 5 blades at the top, there are leaves growing out that have only 1 leaf.
    strange new growth at end of cycle - International Cannagraphic Magazine Forums

    Assuming it's not an actual virus, can "plant stress" be responsible for completely deformed buds? Does it manifest itself that way? To re-iterate... here are the main problems/symptoms:

    1. Flexible tops - Can easily bend the top 2" of my plants over 90 degrees.
    2. Deformed buds - Buds go from typical compact, dense, round flowers with mini fan leaves
    underneath to longer, light, looser, sort of funnel shaped, like rose petals.
    3. New growth - Plants have been in flower for a full 9 weeks. Trichomes are perfect. 1 week
    ago most hairs were healthy and red. Now, the tops are exploding with new deformed flowers
    with new white hairs.

    The last time this happened, after I was done trimming the plants and removing the buds from the stems, I noticed that the stems were nice and smooth up to the tops. Where the plants were "infected" the underlying stems were kinda gnarly and knotted. I set some of the bud aside and smoked it after it cured. It was kinda harsh and less potent (i.e. not very stoney).

    Last grow I assumed plant stress due to lighting or nutes. This grow I lowered the nute dosage and kept the plants further from the lights. This grow the leaves are less burned, but all of the above symptoms have not changed.

    Yes, it sounds encouraging that I'm using phrases like "tops are exploding" and "new growth". But these are unusually deformed buds, that are harsh to smoke and not very potent. Not at all something to aspire to.

    On a typical good grow, my buds are like little baseball bats. The cola's are firm and thick all the way to the top of the plant. There is NO flexibility at the tops of the plants. NONE. ZERO. Healthy plants DO NOT BEND EASILY at the tops. And it's not just the tops. It's the tops of all the buds including the side growth.

    As I start harvesting these I'm going to pull them apart and take more detailed photo's. Hopefully, that will help. I'm having a difficult time communicating my problem and the pictures are too hard to make out the details.

    I really appreciate any help with this. thanks
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2010
  9. canni13is

    canni13is Registered+

    Like i said this is usually caused by using unstable strains and genetics. ALOT of cannabis strains do some funky shit. When people inbreed for years upon years, you get a mutant. Its no different in the plant world. There is some werid shit out there man, look at this strain for proof.Barney's - Seeds

    and its not tmv. As i said before TMV only infects plants in the nightshade family.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2010
  10. bigtopsfinn

    bigtopsfinn Registered+

    Sounds like underwatering. Coco needs to be watered every day, if not twice a day...
  11. stra8outtaWeed

    stra8outtaWeed Registered+

    my .02

    over nuted~looks to me like to much nitrogen late into the flowering cycle and some strains will do what i call a "foxtail" and have a bud shoot out of the bud..but yours looks very leafy to me which is caused from too much N and or light leaks in your growing space during flowering! :smokin:
  12. snowking

    snowking Registered

    Canna13is - I don't believe it's genetics because in my last grow I had both White Rhino and a strain called Early Girl Haze. Both plants were afflicted with the same problem. And I've grown several rounds of EGH very successfully with none of these deformities.

    As far as TMV goes, there are plenty of other posts around the internet with talks of viruses. Some people say TMV affects cannabis some don't. Some people claim there's a cucumber mosaic virus that affects cannabis. I certainly won't argue semantics on a subject I know nothing about. So lets drop the "tobacco mosaic" prefix, and just talk about whether or not I have a virus. If I do, I have to scrap my entire grow and start everything over from scratch. That means mothers, clones, 2 generations in veg, and 3 generations in flower. It's kind of a big deal. If I don't have a virus, then I just need to figure out the problem and correct it. Not such a big deal.

    Bigtopsfinn - I treat the coco like dirt. When I initially water it's very dark for the first day. Second day it's dry on top, but if you stick your finger in it there is obviously still good moisture in the pot. 3rd day the pots are light and ready for water and the plants still look very healthy. If I let it go 4 days the leaves start to wilt and the plants look thirsty. Bottom line is I've been growing for over a year on this watering schedule and I've had a lot of really nice crops. Crops that did not produce deformed buds with soft stems.

    Str8touttaweed - There are no light leaks in my flower room. My nute profile is GH 3 part, Liquid Karma, and Liquid KoolBloom with some CalMag+. Not sure which one of those would contribute to excess N.

    The reason why I initially gravitated toward a virus as an explanation is because I've been growing for over a year and I've had plenty of good healthy crops. I started with Early Girl Haze and then added the White Rhino. I've seen the same bud deformities in both strains, but not until the last 2 crops.

    Also, I've read tons of post on nute excesses and deficiencies and you see a lot of talk about leaf symptoms but I've never seen anything regarding bizarre bud deformities like I'm seeing. (Other than the ICMag post I referenced earlier.)

    Something that just occurred to me this morning is that I've been re-using my coco coir from grow to grow. I rinse it out with straight water in between grows, but I haven't been flushing my plants during veg or flower until my current grow (using water plus FloraKleen). I'm wondering if a single straight water flush isn't enough to clean out the coco. My expectation is that it would merely manifest itself as nute burn, not crazy bud deformities. I don't know. My next batch I'm starting with absolutely fresh bags of coco and I'll do a better job flushing as I go.

    I'm going to be harvesting during the next few days. I'll get some better pics posted once I pull everything apart. I'll snip out some deformed bud sections, lay them on a white piece of paper and take some close-ups.

    Thanks to everyone for posting. I really appreciate you taking an interest and trying to help. All constructive criticism is appreciated, and sometimes the wrong suggestion is what triggers somebody else to come up with the right one.
  13. bigtopsfinn

    bigtopsfinn Registered+

    Could be the re-used coco also... although it should last for a year with proper care.

    I'd still suggest to take another look at your watering schedule. Coco is coco, and has different properties than soil. It's more like hydro, and should be treated as such. You can always try different watering schedules for different plants and see how that works out for you. I've been researching coco for a while now, and it seems that watering daily is the norm, sometimes you can water once every two days, and sometimes it's twice a day, depending on plant and container sizes. Even if you have previously been successful, there's always room for improvement, right? :)

    Also remember to rinse out your new coco well before using it.

    Here's an interesting read on coco...Growing on Coco: Busting the Myth - International Cannagraphic Magazine Forums

    There's a lot of other good information in that section.

    Good luck :thumbsup:
  14. Fo20Jay

    Fo20Jay Registered

    snowking- defiantly TMV, i am dealing with it as well. thanks for posting pics of flowered plants, i have caught most of mine in veg. the few that have made it to flower i may let go and use for hash. from what a have read your cause would be reused coco, TMV can live in dead plant matter and roots for years.BLEACH EVERYTHING!!!!! on your big clean up after harvest and get new coco and you should be back in business.
  15. LOC NAR on probation

    LOC NAR on probation Registered+

    No Bleach.

    Look into Physan 20 for cleaning. If you smoke cig's you can mix with a gallon of water for a handwash that kills mosaic virus. It also kills bacteria such as cyanobacteria and fungi and virus's.
  16. benniboy2000

    benniboy2000 Registered

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