Can't figure out what's going on with these plants...Pics

Discussion in 'Plant Problems' started by Buds Buddy, Jul 28, 2018.

  1. Buds Buddy

    Buds Buddy Registered+

    OK...Here's the Set - Up....4' x 8' x 7' Grow Tent / 3 - 600 watt LED Full Spectrum Lights & 6 - 28 watt LED Spotlights for side lighting ( Currently only Using 2 of the 600 watt LED's ) / 25 plants in 2 gallon pots that were planted from bagged seeds 4 weeks ago (I planted 25 because I'll be lucky if 8 turn out to be Females & I'll dispose of the males once I know) / Growing in Soil - 2 Parts Happy Frog to 1 Part Ocean Forrest so I can add my own Nutes… Gave 1st Nutes yesterday at 1/2 Strength (Just the 3 Base Nutes - All General Hydroponics)/ Using Tap Water pH'd to 6.4 / 18 - 6 Light Schedule / Temps Run 77 - 79 with lights off & 80 - 84 with lights on ( I know the plants will do fine at 80 - 84 degrees because on my last grow with MH - HPS temps were always 88 - 92 & everything grew fine...the buds were just huge & real light weight) / Humidity is 60% - 75% with lights on & 50% - 65% with them off / I still need to install my 8" Fan, Carbon Filter & Duct Muffler which should lower my Temps a few degrees (I ordered it but they sent the wrong size filter so had to send it back & waiting on the replacement) / 2 clip on corner fans with Co2 lines in front of them (haven't used the Co2 because everything isn't right yet) 1 - Oscillating fan / Run Off pH is 6.5....That's pretty much it.

    Now for the problem / problems. 18 of my plants seem to be doing just fine (for now). 7 are doing all sorts of weird things. On 1 plant the leaves keep turning yellow & dying off. on 2 plants the leaves keep turning sideways & a couple of days ago the tops of the plants wilted over....but are standing back up now...but leaves still turn sideways. The other 4 have Droopy Leaves & Twisted, Glossy, Dark Green Leaves.
    All these different things happening is quite confusing. It would be easy to figure out if they were all doing the same thing...but they're not. All getting the exact same treatment...just aren't all growing the same for some reason.

    Please check out the pics & see if you have any suggestions for what is going on. I'll probably have to add pics several times as I took quite a few.

    Thanks in advance for any advice given !!!
     
  2. Buds Buddy

    Buds Buddy Registered+

    1st set of pics: GEDC4062.JPG GEDC4064.JPG GEDC4065.JPG GEDC4066.JPG GEDC4067.JPG GEDC4068.JPG GEDC4069.JPG GEDC4070.JPG
     
  3. Buds Buddy

    Buds Buddy Registered+

    2nd set of pics: GEDC4071.JPG GEDC4072.JPG GEDC4073.JPG GEDC4074.JPG GEDC4075.JPG GEDC4076.JPG GEDC4077.JPG GEDC4078.JPG
     
  4. Buds Buddy

    Buds Buddy Registered+

    3rd set of pics: GEDC4079.JPG GEDC4080.JPG GEDC4081.JPG GEDC4082.JPG GEDC4083.JPG GEDC4084.JPG GEDC4085.JPG GEDC4086.JPG
     
  5. Buds Buddy

    Buds Buddy Registered+

    4th set of pics:
     
  6. Buds Buddy

    Buds Buddy Registered+

    4th set of pics: GEDC4087.JPG GEDC4088.JPG GEDC4089.JPG GEDC4090.JPG GEDC4091.JPG GEDC4092.JPG GEDC4093.JPG GEDC4094.JPG
     
  7. Buds Buddy

    Buds Buddy Registered+

    5th set of pics: GEDC4095.JPG GEDC4096.JPG GEDC4097.JPG GEDC4099.JPG GEDC4100.JPG GEDC4101.JPG GEDC4102.JPG GEDC4103.JPG GEDC4104.JPG
     
  8. Buds Buddy

    Buds Buddy Registered+

    I sure as hell don't know what's going on but it seems to be spreading. I just opened the tent & now 4 plants Tops have drooped over like candy canes. It has to be something to do with this Fox Farms Soil or the LED lights & I'm not sure which or how to treat the problems. I need help fast as I think some of these are about to die if I don't get it figured out.
    I know I'm not over watering as the pots are light when I water & I've only watered about twice a week since it takes about 4 days for the pots to get light weight.
    I see white stalks on the ones with the tops rolling over making me think it's elephant foot / sudden wilt from roots getting damaged during transplant about 8 days ago. But they stand back up for a while & then roll over again so not sure about it.
    On 1 or 2 of the other plants I see purpling in the stems & reddish veins in the leaves making me think it's a Mag. deficiency on those.
    And the plants with the really bumpy twisted leaves seem to have a Boron deficiency....which is highly unlikely...but it looks like the pics I've seen.
    Someone with the knowledge & experience....Tell me what you would do ???
    I'm thinking of not watering for a week & let everything get good & dry before watering again to see if that helps the drooping & rolled over plants.
     
  9. EvilCartman

    EvilCartman Registered+

    Plenty of pics to look at. :thumbsupold: I didn't note any that were exceptionally droopy.
    What's up with all the perlite? Did it migrate to the surface from watering, or is it there by design?

    8 days post transplant, I doubt you are seeing issues from root damage at transplant.
    I would tend to agree that a deficiency is pretty unlikely in soil, so soon after a transplant.
    The FF soil is usually pretty good stuff. (if it isn't buggy) ;)

    Do you move the plants around much beneath the lights? Maybe move the ones having issues to see if it could be related to lighting.
    I don't run LED but I know it can be tricky finding the right distance from the plants to lights.
    Too much intensity at a focused wavelength can overwhelm a plant resulting in a sort of cyclical drooping as it tries to shade itself.

    Your RH is pretty high at times, that should correct itself once you get your extraction going.

    With most plants looking good, all things being equal, maybe Mother Nature wants you to cull a few. Some seeds just produce shitty plants. :(
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Buds Buddy

    Buds Buddy Registered+

    I move the plants (actually just turn the pots about 1/2 turn pretty much everyday. Maybe I should take the ones having problems & put them in my small tent that is set up with a T-5 & 4 LED Spotlights. I also have 2 - 1000 watt & 1 - 600 Watt MH / HPS lights here if I need them. I'm trying out all 3 different lighting features to find out which I like best. So far...MH / HPS was easier to deal with as far as plant problems as I had none of this going on. Only had a N problem with those when I 1st started the grow in Miracle Grow Soil. Oh...& a Gnat problem.
    It's not perlite on top.....it's Gnat Nix (made from recycled glass). A Gnat tries to get through it & it slices it to pieces. Must work as I haven't seen any Gnats this time.
    At 1st I couldn't get the humidity up past 50% on this grow so I ran my humidifier for a week during lights on. Haven't used it in a week because the humidity is around 75% now. I was actually wondering if too much humidity would make the tops of the plants roll over like a candy cane. After the lights are back on for an hour or 2 they stand back up again till the next day. Then it happens again each day. Been like this for a week now. I'm not sure how big a role Humidity plays.
     
  11. Weezard

    Weezard Registered+

    Some overnight droop is normal.
    The Red petioles look like a Phosphorus deficiency but actually indicate that the PH is out of range hindering Phosphorus uptake.
    Where I see trouble is the yellowing leaves with dark veins. It looks like a lack of Nitrogen, But again, that is unlikely. How are you measuring water PH?
    That could be signs of suffocation. Water that sits in the pot for 4 days has lost most of it's dissolved air, and roots need to breath.
    Usually caused by putting too small a plant, in too large of a pot. The plants must have enough root ball to use all the water applied in 2 or 3 days else, it stagnates.
    It's why we go to the trouble of several up pots in small increments.
    No want troubles? No take "shortcuts".
    And 1/2 turn, pretty much every day, is not the same thing as moving the plants around.
    The 1/2 turn thing actually causes plants to waste energy. It's another grow myth.
    A plant can move it's solar collectors at will, and will take what it needs from the light. That, combined with a breeze, is all that is needed for uniform lighting. Tucking/cutting fan leaves is also unnecessary as long as the sun keeps moving and the winds do blow. :)
    Otherwise, most of your girl look good.
    I agree with Mr. C. about culling. It's going to get very crowded in those tents.
     
  12. Buds Buddy

    Buds Buddy Registered+

    I didn't know the reasoning behind up potting. The 12 oz. cups I started with were packed with roots & I didn't think 2 gallon pots would be to large. The way I understand up potting from what I've read (is probably wrong) is that you transplant once from seedling to veg. & you use 1 gallon pot per foot you want your plant to grow in veg. So 2 gallons = a 2' Veg. Plant.
    Then you up pot from veg. to flower using a pot at least twice the size of the pot you used in veg. So 2 x 2 gallon = a 4 gallon pot & you can grow a 4' plant.
    Like I said...it's what I read & don't know if it's good info / half azzed info / or bad info. It's what I did last grow too so maybe that's why I had problems.
    I've been leaving the top of the tent open the past 2 days & the humidifier off & things look slightly better. Could too much humidity be causing these problems ?
    I think I ran it too long as the humidity hit 85% for like 3 days straight before starting to drop. I've got it down to 50% - 60% now.
     
  13. Weezard

    Weezard Registered+

    Here, the RH can stay in the seventies for weeks. It causes no trouble indoors. Outdoors I need to shelter them from rain to avoid mold. And powdery mildew seems unavoidable.

    It is possible, to jump directly from beer cups to big pots.
    Possible, but not easy.
    I'm a lazy guy, so I tried it for years. :)
    When I realized that it was the cause of many problems I decided it was above my skill set.
    Now I go from 16 oz. beer cups to 5.5" square pots, then to 7.75", then 10". I usually flower in the 10" square pots, or 10 gallon bags if I need quantity.
    I use FFOF so it saves a few buck on ferts.
    As soon as the terminal buds show the need for a feed, I up-pot instead. Works a treat.
    And I like the square pot because it allows the maximum amount of soil for a tent or cabinet grow.
     
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  14. Buds Buddy

    Buds Buddy Registered+

    OK...so it sounds like I should do one additional up pot next time. Do you think from the 12 oz. cup to 1 gallon & then to 2 gallon & then to the 5 gallon bags would work better ? I too want as few problems as possible. I keep thinking it's the Fox Farms soil being too hot a mix causing the problems. But it's hard to tell if it's just the seeds, the lights or the soil. So I took the 7 plants that don't look so hot & put them in my other tent last night & they are under a T-5 & 4 - corner LED Spotlights to see if it helps any.
    I know this is a lot of plants to start with....but knowing that at least 1/2 will probably be males I figured I'd have to start with that many seeds to end up with at least 8 females. So once the flowering starts I'll be able to remove the males & have room in the tent for flowering. That is what I was thinking. Does this sound reasonable or no ?
    After this grow I plan to take everything down till I sell this house & buy one with a basement to grow in. Can't put the house up for sale with the tents up for sure.
    I have so much equipment now I could easily do a 20' x 20' room; although I wouldn't go that far as it's too much work when I work so much at my regular job.
    Hopefully growing will be my job when it's time to retire if I can Master it by then. Got 9 years to get it right...LOL.
     
  15. irydyum

    irydyum Registered+

    That wrinkling in the leaves that I see is usually directly related to water discipline.

    I believe the others are right, a more regimented transplant routine, and a consistent water cycle will fix a wide variety of problems expressing in the photos.

    Cheers!
     
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  16. Buds Buddy

    Buds Buddy Registered+

    Thanks Iry !!! I was trying to figure out how to contact you to get your thoughts on my plants. Glad you chimed in !!!
     
  17. Buds Buddy

    Buds Buddy Registered+

    Wow….what a difference ! I put my 7 worst looking plants in my other tent under a T-5 & 4 corner LED Spotlights & now 6 of the 7 look better than any of the plants under the LED's in my other tent. The 1 plant I don't think there's much hope for but I'll give it another week to see if it comes around. So far it looks like T-5's & CFL's are the easiest to grow with. It's definitely the best way for a beginner to start out & have a successful grow. Not sure how much product it will produce but surely the easiest lights to deal with.
    Now I'm debating on switching all my lights to T-5's as I like what I'm seeing with them.
    Anybody know what kind of yield you can get from T-5's (8 - Bulb) per plant off hand ? I was thinking 2 of them in my 4'x8'x7' Tent with the 6 LED Spotlights for side lighting (28 watt). Is it possible (likely) to get 4 oz. per plant with a T-5? If so...that's the way I'm going to go.
    These LED's are too much trouble to deal with for me. I just don't have enough experience with them so I may just set my 2'x3'x6' tent up with just 1 LED & try 2 plants in it so I don't ruin the whole grow. Practice on the 2 plants till I figure them out better.
    Thoughts on changing to T-5's are appreciated. I will be buying 2 of them Friday if you all tell me I can get 4 oz. per plant.
    Let me know.....Thanks !!!
     
  18. Buds Buddy

    Buds Buddy Registered+

    Iry or anybody else for that matter. Would it be safe not to water for 5 - 7 days so I can get everything dried out & get the watering right after that ? Need to get the watering schedule on track again. I think things got messed up during transplant because I had to transplant 25 plants over a 3 day period due to time restraints (not enough time / working 12 hours a day). So each plant got watered on the day they got transplanted. Then I waited 2 days after transplant was complete and started a regular watering schedule & I think I should have waited a little longer before doing so.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. irydyum

    irydyum Registered+

    It's probably "safe" for what it's worth, but you may see some slow down in growth if you don't water for 7 days. At this point though if things are super saturated you may not have another choice. Like Weez said earlier, dissolved oxygen burns up with time, likely not much growth happening from day 3 or so on without water. Also, there is a vacuum effect from top watering a container, as nature abhors a vacuum, it pulls air into the soil behind it as the water descends throughout. Thanks gravity!

    You're gonna have to go with some gut on this one. I usually use container weight as a measure for when to water. I also notice that LED doesn't require the same VOLUME of water as traditional methods, in other words, easier to over water if you don't know. This is partly due to some efficiencies, partly due to lack of IR radiation heating leaf surfaces, transpiration rate, VPD, blah blah blah...

    I'd assume your instant "relief" experienced from going back under the T5 is partly due to radiation heating leaf surface temperature and allowing your plants to transpire at a rate more proportional to how you've watered them. Thus they appear to recover quickly.

    Don't abandon the LED. Way too premature to nail that as a root cause. 99% of the time it's some sort of operator error. Don't be afraid to let ambient temps in the room climb just above where you feel comfortable. This will also help up the transpiration and compensate for some of the over-water.

    I know I didn't necessarily give you an answer or guidance here, but just a couple pennies to consider...

    Off rant.

    Iry
     
  20. Weezard

    Weezard Registered+

    I've seen this dozens of times.
    Plants "see" quite differently from me and thee.
    CFLs look quite bright to us but we need to keep them within inches of the crown. Same with T5s They can be very close without problems because a large part of their spectrum is at frequencies that the plant does not absorb and use easily.
    Wasted Watts, but harder to reach saturation. A good LED produces wavelengths that plants absorb and use very well. Almost too well. This is why none of my DIY lights are >75 Watts. My most used lights are ~55 Watts I still have to give them about 8" clearance because, with light, as with almost everything, "More than enough is too much".
    As you increase the wattage, you also need to increase the clearance accordingly. Try raising your LED lights to twice what looks right to you and see if the gals perk up.
    Greater crown clearance will increase what is commonly called "penetration" What is actually happening is related to the inverse square law of radiated light.
    If a light is 4 inches above the crown for say, 50k Lux it would seem that at 8 inches the intensity would drop to 25k. This is not the case. It will drop to 1/4th of the original. At 12 inches, to 1/9th.
    With a point source light, the intensity of light is inversely proportional to the square of the distance. This means that as the distance from a light source increases, the intensity of light is equal to a value multiplied by 1/d2 .
    Fortunately T5s and led arrays are not point source so the drop is not quite that bad, but is still significant.
    To summarize. The more distance you have from the crown at saturation, (~91k Lux or just below), the more light your bottom branches receive and the taller plant you can keep happy. For reference. My 70 Watt light, tricks it's way around the ISL with a 90° lens. I must maintain a minimum distance from the crown of 10" , but I can grow healthy veggers to 4 feet before I chuck them outside. The sun is a point source, but is ~ 93,000,000 miles above the crown, so the ISL is not a worry there. :)
     

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