Overall pale appearance, dropping leaves.

Discussion in 'Plant Problems' started by EvilCartman, Aug 22, 2009.

  1. EvilCartman

    EvilCartman Registered+

    Things were going so well.....sigh.

    Hello, newbie here. I'm looking for some input on my 'lil grow project. A friend showed me some pictures of a ScROG setup and I thought I'd give it a go.

    Started out with some bag-seed. Germination, and (for the most part) veg growth went ok. About a week before my planned switch from veg to flower, the newer leaves and growing tips took on a pale appearance. The problem came on rather suddenly. The oldest fan leaves yellowed, and some developed areas of necrosis as they shriveled up and dropped. The problem seems to be steadily consuming the plants. I wonder if I can save these somehow, or if it's back to square-one.

    Any ideas? I know I've done a lot of things wrong, so I have no idea where to start making things right. :(

    Below is the troubleshooting form. I've also posted a couple pics. I hope somebody can steer me in the right direction.

    What is your experience level? (first timer, novice, experienced...)
    ** Novice

    Your Equipment:
    .1) Type and wattage of lights. (MH, HPS, CFL's, tube fluorescents, LED's)
    ** HPS @ 400 watts, Eye Hortilux bulb. (Veg growth was under a 400 watt MH)

    .2) Distance from tops?
    ** Approx. 12-15".

    .3) Reflector type? (cool tube set-up, bat wing, enclosed reflector, bare bulb...)
    ** Enclosed reflector w/ 6" exhaust venting.

    .4) Is there a consistent fresh air supply?
    ** yes.

    .5) Do you have an exhaust fan and a circulation fan?
    ** Yes. An oscillating fan blowing across the top and another moving the air around below the canopy (ScROG).

    .6) What are the bulb wattages, kelvin ratings, and schedule?
    ** 400 watt Eye Hortilux HPS. (#LU400S/HTL/EN) Just started 12/12 3-4 days ago. (veg was 400 watt MH at 18/6 for 5 weeks)

    Your medium:
    .7) Specific brand and type of soil, (coco, peat based soilless...) and anything you've added to it. (vermiculite, perlite, worm castings...)
    ** 70% "Miracle Grow" potting soil,10% sand,10% worm castings and 10% Perlite.

    .8) Size of container.
    ** 3 gallon. *there are two plants in the 3 gallon pot.

    .9) Did you use peat pucks (or similar) to root clones or germinate seedlings?
    ** Yes, germinated seedlings with peat pucks.

    Your nutrients and water:
    10) Source of water? (tap, bottled or filtered) What's it's ph before adjusting?
    ** Tap water. I wasn't testing previously, Ph measures 7.2-7.4 from tap.

    11) Method of checking water ph. (ph pen, test strips, aquarium test kit...)
    ** Aquarium test kit.

    12) Method of adjusting water ph. (phosphoric acid, white vinegar, hydrated lime, PH Up...)
    ** White vinegar

    13) Specific brand and N-P-K ratio for each bottle. List dosages (quantity per gallon) and current feeding schedule.
    ** Miracle Grow houseplant food was used for the period when the lights were at 18/6, mixed it at the recommended strength for houseplants indoors,
    N-P-K = 8-7-6.(mix is about 40 drops per gallon). When switching the lamp and photo-period I swithed to "Jack's Classic" Blossom Booster made by
    J.R.Peters, Inc, N-P-K = 10-30-20. I have only made one application at 1/4 teaspoon per gallon.

    14) How often are you watering between feedings, and how much per watering?
    ** Watering every day, feeding every other day. I'm Using about a half gallon at each watering. I had previosly been going with a quart at each
    watering, but the plants wilted on me once, I fear I may be overwatering.

    15) Any additives or tea's? (Superthrive, CalMag, molasses, Mother's Earth...)
    ** None

    16) Are your ph levels stable, or do they fluctuate?
    ** For the few days that I have checked, it has been stable at between 7.2-7.4.

    17) What is your ingoing water's ph? ...your runoff ph?
    ** Ph going in is between 7.2-7.4, I have not checked runoff at all.

    18) Do you foliar feed? If so, with what, how often, and at what time do you spray?
    ** I bought some organic "Neptunes Harvest fish & seaweed fertilizer" with the intention of foliar feeding, but have not used it yet. It is N-P-K = 2-3-1.
    I picked this up when my "yellowing" problem started. I figured I better check in with some more experienced people before I throw another variable in the mix. :eek:

    Your growroom:
    19) Indoors or outdoors?
    ** Indoors

    20) What size of closet, room or hut?
    ** It is a DR80 grow tent, 30" square footprint X 63" tall.

    21) What are the temps and humidity levels while lights are on? ...With lights off?
    ** Over a 24 hr period, temps range from a low of 70 to a high of 81 degrees F. Humidity ranges from 30% to 60%.

    22) Have you seen signs of insects in the growroom?
    ** Fungus gnats were evident in the seedling stage, I've seen no evidence of any insects since.

    Your strain:
    23) What strain are you growing? (Indica dominate or Sativa dom?)
    ** Purely guessing, it appears more indica-like.

    24) From seeds or clones?
    ** Seeds (of unknown lineage)

    25) Is this an autoflower strain?
    ** Unknown

    Attached Files:

    • Like Like x 1
  2. irydyum

    irydyum Registered+

    The leaf droop is probably from overwatering. It is a must to let oxygen to the root zone, and if you water every day, you are "flushing" out all the air that gets trapped as the soil dries. They may have even wilted in the past if you were watering daily then also. Try to let the soil dry out some, I use 5 gallon pots and water every 3rd or 4th day with approx a half gallon of water/nutrients depending on schedule. There is always some dry time in between waterings, and IMHO, the drier days I usually notice more growth.

    Also, I hesitate to comment on your PH with MG soil, I have been scolded for commenting on MG because I have no experience with it. That being said, since no one else is here I feel I must, after all it's just another soil. Ideally, soil ph should fall in around the 6.5 mark. It is imperative that you do a runoff test (sticky in the plant problem forum I believe) to see how your water is interacting with your medium. You may not be seeing outright symptoms as of yet, but ph can get out of control rather quickly.

    For example, if your medium began at 6.5ph out of the bag (hypothetical, I have no clue what MG is out of the bag) and you have been adding 7.2 to 7.4 water daily, it won't take long for the buffer in the soil to give and your ph will shoot up. Hopefully one of the MG gurus will rear their head and help you out, just thought I'd throw something at you in the meantime.
  3. JeffersonBud

    JeffersonBud Banned

    You need a larger pot!
    • Like Like x 1
  4. irydyum

    irydyum Registered+

    Would you have him pull the plant out of the screen to do it? I'm no SCROG expert by any means, but I would think it may be a little too late for a transplant. Great thing to keep in mind for the next time around tho.
  5. JeffersonBud

    JeffersonBud Banned

    Looks like he took it out already (the last picture) Make a soil bed or get another container to fit.
  6. irydyum

    irydyum Registered+

    Hmmm. If it is out of the screen now, I don't think a transplant would hurt anything. I still feel his symptoms are more indicative of the overwatering, but I suppose a larger container would need less frequent watering, so it may also be a way to straighten out the issue. Good call
  7. Rusty Trichome

    Rusty Trichome Registered+

    The MG is buffered to near 7.0 ph. (not tightly consistent nor exact...but close enough) Not too sure it matters much, but when forced to use non-horticultural ph adjusters to bring down my wellwater ph, I switch between vinegar and lemon juice.

    Adding a slow release nitrogen source (worm castings) isn't doing you any good when the MG soil nutes are also slow-release. Problem is...you are no longer in control of the nutrient schedule. Temperatures, age of the pellets and watering determine how much of the nutrients are released.

    If you are going to transplant into a larger pot with fresh MG soil...you will be 'starting-over' as far as wanting to deplete (use-up) the growth cycle nutes prior to switching to 12/12. Might still be better than keeping 'em in with the additional worm castings which can last quite a while and throw nutrient and harvest schedules off. If you have another non-fertilized potting soil with perlite...now would be the time to break it out. :thumbsup:

    The only major problem with transplanting into MG this late in the game is delayed flowering, greening-up (dark green) and a bit of additional stretch. Might even be a good thing for a SOG, though. (or at least not so bad) And since you have two plants in the same pot...I strongly recommend a much larger pot. In the future, one plant per pot is likely a good idea.

    Cannabis prefers a wet-dry schedule. Make sure you water deep enough to absorb moisture and nutrients into the lower root zones once a week, but allow to dry inbetween. Never let the pot get dry enough to accidentally toss it over your shoulder when you go to pick it up. (that's too dry)
  8. EvilCartman

    EvilCartman Registered+

    Thanks for the reply. This is most helpful. I was afraid that I wasn't letting the pot dry out enough between waterings.

    Thanks, I'll jump on that this AM!

    Thanks again. I'm glad I made the screen out of nylon, at least it let me remove the screen without causing any real damage to the plants.

    Looks like the plan for today is Transplant!

    Thanks for the info everyone.

    So, if I'm understanding this, I should go with a potting soil that is not containing any time release nutrients for this re-pot. This will allow the use of my intended flowering nutrients sooner, and without the MG nutrients interfering. Adding worm castings to MG is a bad idea.

    Well, I'm off to the store for supplies, then to the duties at hand.

    After the re-plant I'll check the run-off Ph, and be more attentive to water and soil Ph levels, and water usage.

    ?? After the re-pot will it be needing to resume the 18/6 schedule or keep on the 12/12? (it's been 12/12 for less than a week)

    Thanks again!!
  9. Rusty Trichome

    Rusty Trichome Registered+

    Avoiding the time release mixes helps at this point. During a normal MG grow, the pellets have dissipated and are of no further consequence. If you do continue with the MG, no flower nutes for at least a week or so, then start half-strength and watch for reaction. (you aren't filling a whole pot with fresh MG, you're just adding soil around the existing rootball)

    I'd keep the same schedule, but with the understanding that it will stretch more than usual before starting to fill-in. With what I use now, I usually transplant into it's final pot after a week or two into flower.

    The only exception is if I'm using the MG. With MG I'll transplant a week or two before switching, so most of the nutrients are depleted when I do switch to 12/12. A mature plant will eat-up the nutrients quicker than a young plant, so the nutes don't last as long. There will still be residual, as it is a slow dissolving pellet...but really does no harm.
  10. EvilCartman

    EvilCartman Registered+

    Well, I got the transplant done this morning. I reckon the roots will be a good bit happier in the new house. :)

    Ended up using some organic soil a friend had lying around. Soil Ph tested at 7.0 on the nose, I did the post-transplant soaking with distilled water which checked at Ph 6.0 The run-off Ph tested out to right about 6.4.

    Locally there are some issues with the municipal water supply, (we're currently under a "boil-water" restriction), I don't think I'll feed any of this crap to the girls, LOL. I'm going to play it safe and use nothing but distilled water from here on out.

    I'll have to cut some longer legs for my screen before it goes back in. Hopefully, I'm back on track. :thumbsup:

    Crossing my fingers and hoping to see that pretty dark green foliage again, followed by juicy buds.

    Thanks for the timely advice, don't hesitate to stop me from shooting myself in the foot!

    Great forums, been checking out some grow-logs. Awesome!

    Attached Files:

  11. headshake

    headshake Registered+

    keep in mind that if you run distilled you need to supplement with calmag+ or molasses.

  12. irydyum

    irydyum Registered+

    Holy rootbound batman!!! Thank god you got some breathing room for em now. Who knows how much of the old growth will recover to lush green or not, but anything that's new should look good and healthy:thumbsup:

    Take heed in what Shake said, distilled contains ZERO of your micronutrients that are normally found in tap water. Calcium, magnesium, iron, many of these are normally provided to the plants via tap water. Be sure to supplement.
  13. EvilCartman

    EvilCartman Registered+

    Thanks! Saved me, especially considering that the 2 plants I had outdoors are males. As mother-nature intended I suppose, a 1:1 ratio.

    Thought I'd let ya'll know the transplant and the revised watering/feeding did the trick, and not a moment too soon.

    They're in early flower now and the tops are growing nicely, the top growth is about the size of a thimble and very dense. The plants themselves look a little beat-up, but the leaves have stopped dropping off. I hope they're up to the task of supporting decent tops. I was hoping for a little more stretch before the flowering kicked in, the screen still has plenty of room.

    I couldn't find that "calmag+" anywhere, found some un-sulphured molasses though. Thanks for the heads-up on that!

    Oh yeah, I better apologize, too. I guess I breached rules by posting pics on my very first post, apparently that's a no-no. Whoops, shoulda read the rules *before* posting. My bad. I can still log-in, so... Thanks Admins! :thumbsup:
  14. dillhole

    dillhole Registered+

    Here is a link to find calmag plus. There are many places to get it online.

    Oh, I think pics are always allowed in the plant problems area. Good luck with your grow.

  15. EvilCartman

    EvilCartman Registered+

    Following up

    Just thought i would post a lil' follow up. Just about at 6 weeks in flower, the old girls are still pluggin' away.

    The pale appearance of the established growth never "greened-up" but the flowers came out looking healthy. The two plants have a slightly different look about them, one has a noticeable deep red/purple look to the tops while the other is more of a blue/green.

    I'm gonna declare my "bag-seed shakedown cruise" a limited success. Right now the plan is to finish these up and re-veg so that I might take some cuttings. I need to improve my cloning skills. Came upon Justabozo's DIY bubble-cloner thread and today I'm getting the stuff and whippin' up a cloner. I'd like to see what these girls would look like if they hadn't suffered a near-death experience. :)

    In the meantime, looking at getting some known genetics. Decisions, decisions!!

    Here's the requisite "Bud Pron". I tried to get my old camera to focus, but it's a struggle!

    Attached Files:

  16. scrumby

    scrumby Registered+

    Your cities water won't hurt your plants. Wow thats just nuts.

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