Please help! Droopy Plants

Discussion in 'Hydroponics' started by alwayssleepdeprived, Feb 24, 2007.

  1. alwayssleepdeprived

    alwayssleepdeprived Registered+

    I can't figure out what's wrong...I thought I had the problem fixed but it only made them look better for a day if someone has experience with this setup please let me know what I'm missing

    aero 9 aeroponic setup...started in organic plugs and moved into the nets with hydroton pellets daily air temp is 75 when 400w hps light sun reflector is on I have a fan blowing in an opening of foil covered cardboard around the light which is 2 feet above plants I have a picture to show you what they look like this is during the middle of their day phase so I'm assuming the leaves should be atleast looking better than this...started with brita filtered water and added 400ppm of nuts are they too small could this possibly be too much food? maybe I should just run water through the system if that's the case. the plants leaves feel kinda brittle to the touch as they felt almost leathery before some spots of yellowing have shown up but nothing major if this is running as a "TAG" is it possible I could be over feeding? over watering? someone just help me I don't want to kill em

    PS the bottom leaves on most are twisted and brittle and it seems to be traveling up to the top of the plant slowly if that helps oh and the water temp is hovering at 66 I read that the water temp is supposed to be very cool in aero someone let me know if this could be it possibly need it warmer till they get older then lower or what everything I read tells me to do something else
     

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  2. mackSwell

    mackSwell Registered+

    I don't use aero, but plants is plants, so here's what I see:

    Your temps sound fine.

    They look overwatered. I'm not sure how that is possible in aeroponics, but there it is. However, what you say about the leaves feeling brittle contradicts this. If the leaves are all feeling dry, then they aren't getting enough water. Quite a conundrum!

    I have some questions:

    • It looks like maybe you had an overwatering problem, and that caused the wilt, but now the leaves are drying out in the wilted position. Is that accurate?
    • Are all of the leaves brittle, or just the lower ones? (The oldest pair of leaves do tend to die off at about that size.) The upper leaves appear kinda soggy and wilted in the photo, but it is hard to tell without touching them.
    • For how long have your plants been in trouble?
    • It doesn't look like an overnute problem, but did the problem begin shortly after you began adding nutes? (If it could be a nute problem, then it is a macronutrient problem, evidenced by the worst of it being in the oldest leaves.)
    • What is the pH?
    • What is the humidity in your grow area?
    • What was the ppm of your Brita water before adding nutes?
    • When you said you thought you had the problem fixed, but it only improved temporarily, what had you done that fixed it? Perhaps this is where the over/under watering comes in? Maybe they were overwatered and you cut back too much and now they are drying out?

      Since I don't do aero, I don't know what a good fix is. If my DWC plants looked like this, I would get a shallow container, put pH adjusted H2O and a tsp of H2O2 in it, and set each pot in that for about 6 hours, on top of the tub under the light, and see if they improved. But I'm sure there's a better aero solution... Hopefully some aero masters will chime in and have more experienced input for you.

      Hang in there - They aren't dead yet!

     
  3. Weedhound

    Weedhound Registered+

    Hey this looks VERY familiar!! Hi Mack! :D
     
  4. mackSwell

    mackSwell Registered+

    Hi Weed!

    Here I am, spouting possibly useless advice again! *grin*
     
  5. Weedhound

    Weedhound Registered+

    Well I didn't find your advice useless......and I like your glasses too! :jointsmile: Looks like ASD lived up to his name....posted this thread under plant problems too. :D
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2007
  6. alwayssleepdeprived

    alwayssleepdeprived Registered+

    hey mackswell and weed hound it's nice to know people actually read this stuff rofl

    first off I'm sorry bout the double post I desperately wanted a response

    Mack's q's

    as far as I've been informed you can not overwater aero because the pump is never supposed to be turned off...in my setup I have 20 micron misters which is basically a bit heavier than a fog that runs through the air chamber and has drainage canals to port the water away...if it is over watering the only thing I can think of is because I put them in while they were a bit too young and the roots were always soaked in the hydroton (not hanging out into the open chamber yet...I agree that it looks droopy and wilted and I thought either over water or over fert but the leaves got really dry to the point of being brittle is this what happens in the case of over watering? I've grown twice before in soil so this is my first attempt with a more complex setup Everything I read points to either heat stress or over nute when it comes to curling leaves and brittle texture but even when I had the foil around the light as long as I kept a fan on it stayed dead on at 75F is it possible that plants that are too young can get over lighted without being too warm?

    The the lower the leaves the more exaggerated?sp? the brittle texture seemed to be I'm not sure because there are 2 different kinds in the tank the darker green is a stout afghani indica and the other is a cross between nl and jack so I think that's mostly sativa the indicas leaves even at the top were almost like that of a rams horns even when they seemed healthy but the nl/jack pretty much fanned straight out as far as texture I can't think of a better word than leathery...it really felt like my jacket if it was warm in the sun with some moisture sprayed on it

    hmm how long...umm they seemed to be fine till the first time I added my nutes I added 1 teaspoon for 5 gallons of res and they seemed to be growing at about 1/2 to 1cm a day I added an extra tablespoon after 5 days of this and noticed yellowing and droopy leaves and curling under....I flushed the res and after a day they started coming back....added nutes again as I thought I messed something up and again they got wilted but at this point I thought maybe they were just not getting nearly enough light so I also added the foil around the aero setup...actually let me describe the current setup as detailed as I can:

    the 400w hortilux hps wide spectrum bulb in a super sun reflector is 2ft above the top of the aero tank there pump stays on constantly pumping pure tap water at the moment I know the tap water is at about 190 ppm or so because I took it to a local shop to have it tested...I'm not sure what the britta ppm is but I'd assume it's lower from what I've read it should be much lower like under 50ppm

    the room is in the basement so it's 50F ambient temp and in the section with the light it is 75 with the light and the space heater running...the water in the res I've heard several different takes. I was told best is 65F and with 5 gallons of solution the pump keeps it at 66F with the space heater it's up to around 75F I have no idea who or what to listen to cause every faq and help says something different

    humidity is about 35 to 40 as far as the dehumidifier says

    the ph has been a roller coaster and it's also pissing me off

    water goes in at roughly 6 I say that cause I only have a drop test kit and the next day it's over 8.5 to 9 I lower it each day to keep it at about 6 but it's wandered pretty bad...this is possibly because I've had to change the res out several times and it hasn't had a chance to even out...a few times I've accidently made the ph really low like 4 but again changed the water pretty quickly the main problem is rising ph I flushed the res 3 times after the last feeding which I think I added too much and changed it one more time last night it went in at 6 and I checked it before bed it was over 8 I checked it again when I woke up this morning and it was way over 8 I dropped it down again to just about 6 maybe even a bit lower are the plants too tiny should they be left at about nuetral till they show significant growth? I can't imagine the change is supposed to be that fast but I have no idea what is causing it cause there are no answers in the facs only thing I can think of is stored up nutes were being pushed outta the plants and that somehow raised the ph but after 3 res changes how much could they have left to push out oh by the way if I turn the space heater and the light off the room will go down close to 50 and the res temp will drop to around 60 I'm not sure if that's bad for em...ummm what else oh when they got droopy and brittle they seemed to shrink as well not just in appearance but the leaves themselves got tiny

    I thought I had the problem pegged as over nute because they seemed to look a bit better as I only put water in the res

    As an update with the current setup I described they have perked up a bit and the leaves seem more fleshy I'm not sure if I know what an over watered leaf feels like so if ya could describe it would help I'm not sure how much nute to add cause of all the issues before I'm thinking about changing the res once more after the dark cycle and adding 1/4 teaspoon of maxigrow <- my nute per the 5 gallon res and keeping the space heater on to have the room and res close to 75 at all times till I can narrow down the issue I don't wanna put the foil back on till I hear someone assure me that if the temps stay low enough that you can't over light I think it produces 55k lumens probably somewhere around 45 to 50 now though as it's the third grow

    ok well that's all I can think of to answer those questions...I wish I had a better explanation but it really seemed like adding 4 teaspoons to 5 gallons was too much food from the description of the symptoms unless it was heat stress somehow but I'm positive they never get over 80 I hope this gives you enough info to figure out what I'm missing or maybe for someone to point me in the right direction I'll put an updated pic up when I get a chance thanks again weed and mack ;-)
     
  7. JackdaWack

    JackdaWack Registered+

    You shouldnt be fertilizing those, your final ppm shoudl be like 300. I would say its overfert, with ph lockout = plants drying out similiar symptoms
     
  8. alwayssleepdeprived

    alwayssleepdeprived Registered+

    hmm well thanks for the advice jackdawack as I said before I think when I change the res I'm gonna only add 1/4 teaspon which should only put like 70ppm of nutes in the water I'm hoping that should avoid any possible over fert...should I worry about the res temp getting down to 60? or was the rest of it all probably fine? if I should worry about temp what would be the lowest to allow cause I'm hoping to save costs of space heating
     
  9. Weedhound

    Weedhound Registered+

    Ok ASD, you are about to get yelled at:

    You can't just get around to fixing the ph when it suits you in hydro....you MUST get control of it or your plants will die. It's that simple in hydro. It's as if trying to grow in soil and saying "well I have everything I need to grow except I'm kind of fuzzy on that water thing so I'll just gloss over that part and go with 2 out of 3. PH is ALL in hydro. If you can't achieve a stable ph between 5.6-6.2 AT THE MOST over a 24 hour period don't even bother for very long because it won't happen for you (or anyone else with that kind of ph probs) ;)

    If your water isn't working or won't stay stable then use RO or distilled water.
    Dump the britta filter....speaking from experience.

    If you dont have them already get good quality ph up and down. USE them as often as you need to! You will need to check your ph SEVERAL times a day until you have stablized it. A good quality ph pen is nice to have too, but not necessary as long as you can measure ph in some accurate way.

    You are overnuting.....but with ph being that wacky they probably aren't uptaking the nutes anyway but I agree with Jack completely....300ppm/tops for younguns'.

    So DONT be looking to be sleeping too much real soon! :D

    Jack if you get a chance could you check out my thread on "rootbound" in this forum and give me you opinion? Thanks...:)
     
  10. Weedhound

    Weedhound Registered+

    And a few pssss...

    Any foil you have around.....get rid of it. If you don't have Mylar maybe some cheap white paint or anything white to help reflect.

    At a month old young man (or young woman) with that kind of ph rodeo be glad they are still kicking at all! (And I mean that in a nice way :))

    I might even think about just giving them plain ph'd water (R0 or distilled of course) for a few days since they are a month old. I thought perhaps they were new-ish clones. I would get that advice from a wiser mind than mine tho......there are plenty around. :D Or perhaps Flora Kleen or ???
    Just rambling really on this last one.....
     
  11. the way

    the way Registered

    looks pretty clearly over-watered to me
     
  12. alwayssleepdeprived

    alwayssleepdeprived Registered+

    PH stabilization issue

    I've been checking the ph all day and trying to keep it just below 6 I'm looking at the drop test with incandescent light cause they said hid messes it up and flouros seem to make it look goofy too...I have a 5 gallon tank sitting out ready to be switched in with 1/4 teaspoon of food so that should keep the ppm down way below 300 I know the ph of the 5 gallon waiting to go in is just below 6 so I'm hoping my fluctuating ph is taken care of now...would it make sense that ph would climb really fast for a bit after over nuting? I'm hoping that's the case cause it should level out once the plants stop pushing out the extra we'll see I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this next flush resolves the issues atleast the severity anyway thanks so much weedhound for all the help so far I'll keep this thread posted...
     
  13. alwayssleepdeprived

    alwayssleepdeprived Registered+

    Here's a new pic after the most recent res change

    running at 1/4 teaspoon for the 5 gallons at just under 6 ph maybe right at 6 the res is at like 73 right now and the air by the plants is about 75
     

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  14. Weedhound

    Weedhound Registered+

    Good! Hopefully you will see a change soon. The really crispy parts of your leaves will die off so don't be surprised but you should the rest of them begin to perk up within a day or so if you are on th ph thing.

    The drop test deal is fine.....if you hold the tested water against a white background it helps...(I have fish :) ) If you can stay between 5.5-6.5 you are good. Keep your nutes on the very low to none side for awhile.

    Some ph issues simply are caused by the water you use...some tap water is extremely hard to keep ph stabilized which is why many people use RO or distilled. Fixing your ph several times a day can get old REALLY QUICK and those types of water stay more stable in my opinion. There are also cool setups you can buy that do nothing but keep your ph adjusted. Just some other cud to chew on ....:D

    Somewhere on these forums (I think in the indoor growing section somewhere) I started a thread on my trying out molassas in my grow and the resulting ph horrors that I caused in my plants and had to fix. If you have time to read it you may find it interesting. So yes....overnuting, among other things, can cause quick rises in ph.
     
  15. alwayssleepdeprived

    alwayssleepdeprived Registered+

    Ph seems to be more reasonable

    I put it in at just under 6 last night and checked before I went to bed I added just a touch of down to put it closer to 5.2 - 5.5 for the night and when I got up it was decent at around 6.5 so hopefully it will even out quicker than before the plants already look a ton better but like you said (weedhound) the really brittle leaves are doubtfully gonna recover...on the bright side none of the leaves are hanging straight at the side they are all atleast trying to fan out so in the 2 days time they've seemed to show life again I just took a pic I'll post it below *keeping my fingers crossed* tonight I'll get a pic that isn't distorted from the hid
     

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  16. Weedhound

    Weedhound Registered+

    Yes they do look better! Keep it up!:thumbsup: I will check back tonight.:)
     
  17. mackSwell

    mackSwell Registered+

    pH First

    That's what I thought, but the wilted appearance seems to say 'overwatered'. But working out some of these other issues should help.

    This could have caused the overwatering. Hydroton should not be saturated, or your roots won't get enough air.

    No. The wilting is a sign of overwatering. The drying out is something else.

    Heat stress usually causes browning around the margins. Your leaves looked pretty evenly greenish though dry. And over nute usually starts with browning at the leaf tips. The only brown you mentioned was spots... That says either pH shock (highly likely considering the info below) or hot spots from the foil around your light (also likely).

    Yes, but really only with just-sprouted plants. They need to get gradual or indirect light until they "harden off". This may have been a problem eariler, but that time has passed now.

    Your description is excellent! - but I haven't the foggiest (NPI) idea what would cause that. *chuckle*

    Okay. So nutes are a problem. Doubling the nutes was probably way too much for them. You'll want to go up more gradually than that in the future.

    I use tap water with my plants with little trouble. The only thing I have to be careful about is changing the rez more frequently, especially when the plants are young... I believe that minerals and salts build up in my rez after about 5 days. The leaves would begin a downward curl.

    Do you have city water or a well? Do you have a water softener?


    75 is high for rez, but great for room temp. Move your space heater further from the rez maybe?


    Do you really need the dehumidifier now? Tropical plants, and all... Maybe during flower, but maybe not now.

    I suspect that as Weed said, this is your main problem.

    That is some serious drift. Plants do not like pH changes of .5 or more within a couple of hours. Are you "resting" your tap water? You should let it sit out for 24 hours in an open container before using it.

    Try this: Put tap water in a jug, test pH. Let it sit for 24 hours, test again. How much change?

    Yikes. Okay - pH shock does all kinds of bad things to your plant, to say nothing of the nutrient problems it causes. Some nutrients are being locked out at your lower and higher pHs, so you get deprivation, but other nutes are not locked out, so you get overnute of those. Gotta get that pH under control before anything else.

    No. You want them consistantly as close to 5.8 as you can get them throughout growth.

    With a rez as small as 5 gallons, it doesn't take much to effect your pH. If your tap water's pH is unstable, this could be the main problem.

    60 is fine. Roots like it cold. 75 is high though.

    This could be from pH shock, or from nutrient problems due to pH flux, or overall plant stress.

    If the pH caused over & under nute problems, plain water would improve them temporarily. pH, pH, pH... *chuckle*

    They wilt. Like lettuce that's been sitting in a bowl too long. They get soft limp, and flaccid, (Aww. *smirk*) and can get wrinkly, but not brittle/crispy - that's something else.

    No foil.

    Yes - WAY too much.

    Glad to help. Long live cannabis.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2007
    Chronic Chrissy likes this.
  18. alwayssleepdeprived

    alwayssleepdeprived Registered+

    Mack's response

    ok I only have a couple minutes but I wanted to touch on a couple things before I leave while it's fresh in my head...

    the nute issue seems to be better left super low currently at 1/4 teaspoon for the 5 gallon res From now on I'm definately going to let the water sit out for atleast a day as this does seem to help the ph stabilize a bit I've been checking the ph for the last couple days and the roller coaster seems to be running out of steam as the ups and downs are limited to about 1 full point rather than 4

    The dehumidifier was the only meter I had so I just put it in there to check it...it's not running in that area cause like you said being tropical during veg stage I'd rather have em be moist as possible

    I'm thinking about getting an interval timer for the pump and a heat rod as well so the space heater can be removed from the loop not only is it expensive but it's not easy to estimate heat by guessing how far to move it from the res I want it as self sustaining as I can get

    you mentioned wrinkly leaves as a sign and I do notice that the new leaves definately appear quite wrinkled I'm not sure if new growth starts out wrinkled and then gets flatter and smoother as the leaf itself matures so I'm going to keep an eye on this...I'm sure at night I could leave the pump off for much longer than it could be during the day but I've heard that you aren't supposed to turn the pump off at all so I'll tweak that over the next week or so like you said about the ph I don't want to change a bunch of things drastically and not learn what changes brought about what effect

    as long as yer sure the res can be as low as 60 I'm going to make sure the space heater is angled away and started above the res to avoid heating it unnecessarily I'm trying to keep as close an eye on it as possible...all the help has been wonderful they're starting to look like they might pull through *hopes*

    when it comes to aero I'm still not sure how fast they should be growing I've heard as much as 2 inches or so on an 18/6 daily cycle but it doesn't say at what height the start was so maybe that's only with older plants and a more established root system I'm really thinking that the over water problem was more apparent before the roots were hanging out through the nets as now they are hangin in misted air the over water issue should subside I'm trying to pay close attention to this so I can better help myself and others that might choose to grow this way in the future

    again thanks a million for the help I'll be posting again later tonight with an updated pic and info:thumbsup:
     
  19. mackSwell

    mackSwell Registered+

    They definitely look better, and it sounds like you're on the right track now. I'll keep checking in!
     
  20. JackdaWack

    JackdaWack Registered+

    Honestly, this was a complete ph problem, the wilting was not over water, but underwatering, becuase the plant cant get what it needs at >6. They dried out once they became so dehydrated. The plant doesnt really need to take in nutes at this stage so it has nothing to do with under over fert or lockouts. They have all they need but good plain ph'ed water, No one seemed to realize the fact that there to young to take in nutes yet or were. I cant belive u were having this much trouble with the ph, every res change shoudl ph twice a day for 2 days and then after once a day or when needed. I find my ph levels out a couple days after a res change.
     

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