SUBSTITUTION: tips, tricks and guidelines

Discussion in 'Drug Testing' started by IamN2pot, May 1, 2004.

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  1. FakeBoobsRule

    FakeBoobsRule Smackdown Moderation

    Most synthetic urine is good beyond 8 hours. For example, Quick Fix has a shelf life of 18 months and can be heated and cooled repeatedly. It does not require refrigeration or freezing during storage. It will not "ferment." Human urine will start to break down around the 8 hour mark and after several more hours, depending on the urine and conditions, ammonia will form and can be detected. Room temperature storage is one of the advantages of Quick Fix.

    Ok, now you are just splitting hairs because elevated levels of HCG can be present in pregnancy, prostate, and testicular cancer as well as a couple of other conditions. Bottom line is employers can't test for for HCG during a drug test or any other hormones or even genetic testing because it is illegal. Right off the top of my head I can't think of any point during employment where you can be forced to submit to hormone or genetic testing. I am going to get more into this in a minute.

    It is not the job of the lab tech to interpret the results, that is what the Medical Review Officer (MRO) is for, who is not a tech but a doctor with a medical degree.
    It will never get this far because it is illegal to perform hormone testing during a drug test. Period. Besides, most doctors I know would start with an ultrasound! :)

    HIPPA was enacted in 1996 and mainly deals with health care privacy. I am almost 100% certain that the laws that prevent employers from performing hormonal testing on employees is covered by another act and has been on the books much much longer. It isn't just a violation to do such testing, it is against the law. It doesn't have to do with the extra cost either.

    It is safe to use either gender urine as long as it is not dilute or dirty.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2007
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  2. chantoke

    chantoke Banned

    a medical tech would still ask if the urine was your own if you're a guy and it came back with a positive hcg and you were still in the testing area. nurse would if she was the one who got the results. not saying what's supposed to happen, just what happens.

    hcg is most frequently associated with the cancers i mentioned. not trying to be right, just telling you what it is. in a guy with hcg in his blood, the doc is gonna be worried about testicular cancer first thing.

    i don't know about quick fix's "sterility" after 8 hours. in human urine, the excereted sugars are fermented by bacteria. not a lot unless you're diabetic. not sure what bacteria do with the other products, but if you say so.

    HIPPA is current law. that's how lab policy in the united states is currently determined. there may have been earlier less well clearly spelled out precedents, but you have to stick with what's current in law.
  3. FakeBoobsRule

    FakeBoobsRule Smackdown Moderation

    Chantoke you really should stop posting incorrect information in the drug testing section. Giving people incorrect info on drug testing could have serious consequences because people's jobs, freedom, or children may be at stake.

    They cannot test for hcg during drug testing period. This would never happen under current laws. Besides, most drug tests that use lab equipment and not instant testing are not performed in the same location where the urine is collected. If you are still in the waiting area 2-5 days later, something is wrong.

    Now why did you go from hcg in urine to hcg in blood??? Why would they have a blood sample if they are testing your urine?

    You shouldn't have sugar in your urine, if you do then that can be a sign of diabetes. Hundreds of years ago this was how they diagnosed diabetes, if the urine tasted sweet. They test the pH of the urine and if it is high then that may suggest old urine and substitution as well as using additives added directly to the urine such as nitrites. You pretty much have this backwards.

  4. chantoke

    chantoke Banned

    fructose is in urine as well. i won't bother responding to the rest because it's not really very relevant--no one cares.

    with all due respect, you're not the only expert here.
  5. chantoke

    chantoke Banned

    i was just thinking about it, that was a pretty lame post to make for me overall. thanks for your expertise man.

    i guess i lost site of the practical point there--what i should have said is i don't think if you had those cancers the HCG would show up in your urine. so a doctor wouldn't think cancer regardless. i wasn't thinking straight when i wrote it.

    with regards to urine and glucose, i think you might have misread what i wrote. i was just trying to say urine is not sterile after it's been sitting for awhile. just like leaving something sugary out for awhile. if someone is diabetic or just had a sugar rich meal, it can spill into their urine. those samples will not stay sterile.

    i'll be careful in the future too in how i phrase what i write. just here to share in the knowledge.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2007
  6. geekedupgirl

    geekedupgirl Registered

    I'm not exactly sure where you got your information but you've referenced fructose and glucose which are both different types of sugars. Fructose are the sugars present in fruits NOT urine. FakeBoobsRule is correct a classic symptom of diabetes is the presence of glucose in the urine.

    I'd just like to clarify that when drug testing facilities test urine samples they are checking for nothing but DRUGS. That's it, period. Not DNA, not diabetes, not pregnancy, not hereditary mental illnessess (but reading some of these posts, maybe they should start). Your urine is not special. No lab tech is going to risk their time and the companies money/resources to perform tests that are not only unneccessary but illegal.
  7. chantoke

    chantoke Banned

    you can definitely have fructose in your urine. it's called fructosuria. both are in your urine in diabetes and with heavy sugar loads. it's a slower digesting sugar than glucose.

    here's the article to support that since it seems every starts from a priori of zero here:

    [Fructose in the blood and urine in diabetes melli...[Z Gesamte Inn Med. 1973] - PubMed Result

    you're right about the second part. i never contested that--if you read my posts, i agreed fully with whoever first made that point. its a violation of HIPAA which is the current legal standard of medical confidentiality in the united states. i made this point a long while ago. actually i think you made it first if my memory's right. but i agreed with you.
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2007
  8. chantoke

    chantoke Banned

    also, both glucose and fructose can end up in the urine in ANYONE whose kidneys can't reabsorb sugars. it's not just diabetes, despite what you might be initially taught in school. the proximal tubules of your kidneys reabsorb sugar. if they are overloaded (ie from a sugar rich meal), you will have sugar in your urine. although it can be a sign of diabetes, that's because the diabetes disease process damages your kidneys reabsorptive capabilties.

    anything that slows your kidneys down, or someone with genetically slower kidneys, can have sugar in their urine.

    here is a link that explains it with more formal language:

    Renal Glucosuria: Tubular and Cystic Kidney Disorders: Merck Manual Home Edition

    i'm not sure if anyone cares--i'm just saying don't leave urine on the shelf too long. if you're someone dropping sugar in your urine after having a lot of junk food, the urine will not remain sterile for long.
  9. FakeBoobsRule

    FakeBoobsRule Smackdown Moderation

    My head is hurting from the poor information on metabolic disorders, diet, decomp/decay of urine, and substitution. It is one thing to find info on the internet but it takes a little more to understand it properly. I don't know where to start the presence of glucose in the urine or the presence of fructose in the urine.

    I will start with fructose and fructosuria. Fructosuria is the presence of fructose in the urine and it is NOT normal. It is NOT caused by eating a meal heavy in sugar or fructose. It is caused by a metabolic disorder where the body lacks the enzyme fructokinase. You shouldn't have fructose pumping through the proximal renal tubules of the kidneys. The kidneys are not supposed to reabsorb fructose because the kidneys should never see fructose and the problem is the lack of enzyme and not in the kidneys. Let's review this again. You eat something containing fructose. Fructose has to be converted to glucose or glycogen before your body can use it. The kidneys should never be exposed to fructose because it is broken down first by fructokinase. Your kidneys do not "know" how to reabsorb fructose because that is not a normal job of the kidneys because fructose should be converted to glucose or glycogen. So if your body lacks fructokinase, this is the only way fructose can end up in the urine, not from eating a bunch of fructose.

    Like I said earlier, this article is useless.

    Again I have repeated this before, HIPAA deals with confidentiality and I am almost positive it is the Drug Free Work Place Act of 1988 that prevents gender testing. Really this is becoming a mute point because it is a fact that by law they cannot test fluid/tissue samples for things other than drugs. Does it really matter which act or law covers it.

    Wrong. I tackled the fructose in the urine, soon I will discuss glucose in urine and meals.
    I never said diabetes is the only cause of glucose in the urine. I said that was the classic sign of diabetes and there is a difference. It is like saying all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares. Diabetics often times have glucose in the urine if it is uncontrolled but glucose in the urine doesn't always mean diabetes. I am fully aware the differential diagnosis includes every thing from Cushing's to acute renal failure.

    Now we are at the heart of the problem. You have incorrectely identified cause and effect in several ways. Normal blood sugar should be between 80-110 mg/dl, some say 120. I go with current guidelines and use 80-110mg/dl. After a meal the blood sugar may spike up closer to 200 mg/dl in normal people. This peak may last around 2 hours or less and your body deals with this by producing more insulin from the pancrease. If you are normal your kidneys should easliy handle this 99% of the time. Your kidneys will reabsorb glucose and no glucose will be deposited in the urine. Even during this 2 hour time period your kidneys should be able to handle this. This is the normal process. The abnormal process in a diabetic (other disease processes withstanding) is that the blood sugar level rises long enough or high enough that it overwhelmes the kidneys and some glucose may end up in urine. This can be complicated by poor patient compliance as far as diet and insulin regimen. It doesn't start off with damaged kidneys leading to decreased efficiency. However, if this happens enough times there is kidney damage and it becomes easier to overwhelm them, a vicious cycle. So let's review:

    Glucose in the urine in a diabetic is caused by blood sugar levels high enoug/long enough that the kidneys can't reabsorb all the glucose.

    This is so vague and and out there I am just going to say let's imagine it was never said.

    You should re read your own link please. I think you are missing some things. For instance, when it says "very high blood sugar levels" that doesn't mean 200 after a meal. They are talking about 350, 400, 500 mg/dl which doesn't just happen from eating sugar unless there is a disease state present.

    Again, normally there is no glucose in urine even after a sugar filled meal unless you have a disease state and the most common disease state for this to occur is diabetes.

    What causes urine to decay/decompose is the breakdown of urea yielding ammonia which raises the pH of the urine beyond the accepted range. It is not fermentation by bacteria.

    I'm sure I missed something but that is because I am really tired from having to correct bad information but this is pretty damn close.

    Despite what you said this isn't about playing in the same sandbox. What this is about is people come to the drug testing forum usually in a panic. They have a drug test coming up for a job, probation, maybe child custody case. Many times they are so upset and worried they don't read all the information in a post or posts. Many people give incorrect advice here and eventually someone will provide the correct info in the thread further down or in another thread but some don't read that far. I am just trying to help people and this isn't anything personal. I have only grown pot once so you wouldn't find me in the growing forums giving advice and if I did I would hope someone would correct me when I said something wrong.

  10. FakeBoobsRule

    FakeBoobsRule Smackdown Moderation

    Well the debate has good parts and bad parts. It is good because people can learn from it but it has gone on so long there is so much now to dig through, almost to the point it has gone off topic but not. I hope people understand now how to store urine and why and that it is ok to use the other gender. Maybe you can split it from the main sub thread or something.

    Wow, I feel like I made one big circle.
  11. endprohibition

    endprohibition Registered

    urinalysis for the justice system...Help!

    First let me say thank you so much for all the great info and research that you all share for free on here, I would be lost without it. That being said, I have been distressed to find very little on the internet about needing to pass a test in the criminal justice system.
    I am a daily smoker, and the criminalization of using marijuana is a never ending source of frustration. My own situation is thus. I have been sentenced to two weeks jail time for driving under suspended license (first offence), and I am being 'allowed' to serve it with electronic home monitoring, because I have kids, (not to mention that the detention center is full and they are over budget and under staffed), and to be eligable I must submit to a drug screening. When I asked why, they said that you are not allowed to be on drugs or alcohol while on the ankle bracelet. You would think, by that logic, that they would test at the End of a sentence. Anyhow, I, with a totally clean record before this, am about to be under the hairy eyeball of big brother, and let me tell ya, it is no fun.
    I have scoured the internet for advice and facts, and it has helped me to arrive at about a 75% confidence rate for substitution, seeing as how I have to test in two days ( and my body comes with a built in urine smuggling compartment). However, I have been getting paranoid about some questions that I can't seem to find any answers to, even after hours and hours of research. And they are these :

    Is the technology used to conduct urinalysis for the justice system different from the kind used in employment? How so?

    Are all urinalysis for the corrections system supervised and how?

    Are you suddenly stripped of all your 2nd amendment rights the moment you enter into the system? Do they have the right to cavity search you, or otherwise invade your privacy, even without probable cause?

    And, please, a clear statement about if age and sex have effect on your results, meaning wouldn't I be safer using my child's urine since I know he hasn't had anything that would give him a false or true positive? Does the justice system have the right and the ability to delve into this?

    Pretty pretty please!
    It would be such a weight off my mind to get some responce to this. Im just an ordinary person who likes to live off the grid as much as possible. But I am a woman and a mother, and single at that, and for something harmless my whole life is suddenly at the whims and mercy of our awful drug policy and the morality that drives it. Our only defense is to keep doing our best to outwit them, and VOTE :hippy: Thanks
  12. FakeBoobsRule

    FakeBoobsRule Smackdown Moderation

    You really need to do better research if this is the solution you have come to. Substitution is best served for employment drug screens because by law unless you give them cause, they can't observe you. However, drug testing for court is much different. It will be different from each court system from county to county etc. but most will watch the urine flow from the body to the cup. It can be done and women probably have a better chance of passing an observed test but to try to substitute for a court ordered screen is madness. I don't know how your research led to this is a good idea. In emplotyment screening way more than 75% of people pull it off successfully but for court that number drops significantly. Oh, by the way if you are caught this is against the law and will only make things worse. There is a chance they might not observe but you won't know before hand and the chances are almost certain the will observe.

    Yes and no. They may use instant test strips and if you fail the instant test, a full lab test will be ordered. If you have been researching you will see these instant strips are very accurate and use the same technology. I must have answered that like 3 times yesterday alone.

    They watch the urine flow from the body to the cup in most cases sometimes in the same room. See above.
    2nd amendment is the right to bear arms. You are thinking more of the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments but you are stripped of those too because you are pleading guilty to a crime!

    Chantoke was probably banned for trying to confuse people with their misinformation. Age and sex of the donor do not matter as long as the sample is drug free. Don't forget to think about prescription drugs. Make sure your donor is 100% clean so that when you get caught for subbing on a court ordered test at least it is clean. It won't matter but at least you can have that satisfied feeling you did have a clean urine.

    Sorry but to do the sentence at home is a Godsend and the smart thing would have been to quit and get through the 2 weeks. Subbing for court is a horrible idea and you need to quit if you haven't, get some home tests, and possibly do some aerobics. If you have any more questions, do me a favor and start your own thread please.
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2007
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