Treating Dog with Aggressive Cancer, not sure it's working.

Discussion in 'Medicinal Cannabis and Health' started by challender, Jul 5, 2017.

  1. challender

    challender Registered+

    Here are the basics:

    Rottweiller, 90lbs, fast growing breast cancer with mets to lung. Was given 3 months April 4th, 2017.

    We started with RSO at a good dispensery. Worked up to a gram a day, orally. Then a gram and a quarter. We tried an Indica (thc) rso, but that made her extremely sleepy. We switched to a Sativa (Siver Haze currently), she seemed to do better on it.

    BUT -- Tumor had stopped growing, but began growing again a month ago, and has about tripled in size.
    We started to have trouble getting her to eat about the same time.

    We switched to cannabis suppositories, as we read that there is less head high (she has been very high), and that it is better for breast cancer, and the body absorbs it better -- at 1 gram a day. We are also using a topical made with canna paste and DMSO directly on the tumor 3 times a day. We switched from oral to suppositories about 5 days ago. And so far, nothing seems changed.

    Any suggestions? I can't think of anything we're doing wrong.
     
  2. challender

    challender Registered+

  3. challender

    challender Registered+

    I just wanted to add one note. The tumor has always been hotter than her regular body temperature. About a day ago, we noted that it was now cooler than her normal body temperature. I am not sure what that means. But she ate better today.
     
  4. gardenermendo

    gardenermendo Registered+

    You're asking for a miracle. It likely is hard to achieve. Please don't feel like you're doing something wrong.
    I know you love your rott. I have one, mine is 130 lbs.
    I don't know the age of your rott. Is it possible for the vet to surgically remove the tumor? I wish you the best!
     
  5. Weezard

    Weezard Registered+

    I suggest that you look up "bell curve" as it applies to medication.

    I have a 70 pound Shepherd mix that presented with multiple Mammary tumors.

    Have been using RSO myself for prostate cancer for many years.
    I track growth by measuring PSA levels.
    At first, it was effective, and slowed the "doubling rate" considerably.
    I followed advice from the internet and worked my way up
    to a gram per day in a 100 kilo male.
    Did that for months.
    Still slowed the growth, but as time passed, (and dosage increased), there was less slowing, but still a tad better than no treatment at all.

    That's where the dog comes in.
    Started her on a 4 mm. drop, ( ~ 40 mg.), twice per day.
    When I tried to ramp up the dosage, she stopped eating.
    Just looked at the food dish like she had forgotten what it was.
    She had just lost 20 pounds so I had to get her to eat.

    So we continued the low dosage and the tumors shrank rapidly! They were all but gone in 60 days.
    There was one fat nipple that stubbornly remained out of 4 that originally looked like this; IMG_1341_(800_x_600).jpg IMG_1344_(800_x_600).jpg
    With that low dosage, she regained lost weight, and her interest in life.
    3 of the 4 tumors are gone. She still has one odd looking nipple.
    She's 10 years old now and is back to frisky. :)

    Then why are my results so minimal with a much higher dosage?

    Here's where the bell curve comes in.
    When medicating, as we increase the dosage it starts with no effect.
    Then there's a "threshold" and a rapid increase curve that peaks at a specific mg. per kg. dosage.
    That is the most effective dosage for that medication.

    More is not better!
    Barring an LD-50, increasing dosage beyond the ideal causes a decrease in effectiveness. A mirror image of the curve that gives it it's bell like appearance.
    As dosage goes up, effectiveness goes back down until there is no effect.

    Aha! That makes sense.
    I immediately dropped my dosage to less than a 10th of what I had been taking. and my PSA not only slowed drastically, but for the first time in 10 years it actually shrank!
    It dropped by 2 ng. per ml. in 6 months. I'll have another assay in about a month to see how that continues.
    Then, I'll keep adjusting my dosage to find the most effective mg. per kg., then publish.

    The point being, too high a dosage gave me minimal improvement.
    Dropping back closer to the peak of the bell curve, actually reversed my PSA readings.
    This is a case where less, is more, and more than enough, is too much.

    For an 80 pound dog the most effective dosage should be roughly 50 mg. of good, high THC, oil.

    Fear, and bad advice had me overdosing.
    My dog showed I was in error, and probably saved my live. :)
    Good dog!

    Aloha,
    Weeze
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. challender

    challender Registered+

    THANK YOU SO FREAKING MUCH! Holy Cow!
    I think that this is exactly what is happening to us.

    She stopped eating at a gram a day. And we freaked and kept increasing the dose. We didn't give her a dose yesterday, and she did do better. We're going to slow it down and see what happens.

    AGAIN, YOU ARE AN ANGEL! TOTALLY AWESOME! Thank you so muc

    (Edited to add)

    I just checked my journal. The tumor DID NOT start to grow until we upped it to just over a gram a day. It was staying the same size under a half gram.

    Also, one of the things that was really confusing us is that she had two other smaller lumps that went away very early on. This was when she was probably at a fourth of a gram or less a day.

    We are going to not give her any more meds for 24 hours, then drop it to the smaller dose you suggest, and see what happens.

    Plus -- time to seriously research that bell curve. Thank you again.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  7. challender

    challender Registered+

    Quick question: 50mg twice a day? Or is that divided into two doses of .25mg? Thank you again!

    And -- best of luck to you, too! You'll be in my thoughts and prayers!
     
  8. Weezard

    Weezard Registered+

    Considering her tolerance, twice a day at 50 mg. might not be excessive.
    Wish I could say for certain.

    Disclaimer:
    I am not qualified to give medical advice.
    I'm just some guy on the net trying to figure this out.

    Aloha,
    Weeze
     
  9. Weezard

    Weezard Registered+

    • Like Like x 1
  10. gardenermendo

    gardenermendo Registered+

    You're in good hands with Weezard. Seriously.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. challender

    challender Registered+

    Thank you! And don't worry, I do understand. Rick may have got the ball rolling, but the medical people dropped it. No one knows anything for sure. We're all just feeling our way in the dark. So I thank you, regardless of the outcome.
     
  12. challender

    challender Registered+

    Just a quick note:
    She's been off the oil for 24 hours -- we plan to go 36 before starting the 50m twice a day -- and this is the first time in ... at least a week that she has eaten anything not put in her mouth first. It wasn't a lot, but it was GOOD to see her interested in food.
     
  13. challender

    challender Registered+

    I just wanted to post an update, Druscilla ate better yesterday -- better than she has eaten in weeks. And she seems to actually have a bigger appetite today. She's already eaten about a cup of food. By noon, usually all we've been able to manage, for a long time, is a 1/4 cup. So we're doing good. We're going to see if she'll eat more later in the day.

    We're not out of the woods. But at least this is a step in the right direction.
     
  14. challender

    challender Registered+

    Dru's appetite is improving. But? Strangely? She seems just a high on 50mg twice a day, as she was with a gram and a quarter divided by three, every 8 hours. I am quite surprised by this.

    She seems more lively most of the day, but sleeps HARD. She is eating a bit now on her own now, too. We still have to hand feed her by hand a lot. But she no longer projectile spits her food bites across the room in defiance. It's more like, "ooh, that tastes good", and licks our fingers clean.

    One day at a time.
     
  15. Weezard

    Weezard Registered+

    Don't be afraid to cut the dosage in half.
    They don't have to get baked to achieve remission.
     
  16. challender

    challender Registered+

    We are having a off day today. She threw up what she ate at 2:30pm. But I found this note in my journals. When we first found the lump, it was very small. So we began to give her a 1/2 grain of rice. We were ill ourselves, so we didn't take her immediately to the vet. Here's the note. Because it might be helpful.

    For a year, with no effect, we gave her 1/2 small grain rice once a day.

    When we saw growth, we upped that to a grain of rice, twice a day. This knocker her silly. She was sleepy enough that she wasn’t eating properly. But after a month, the smaller tumor was gone. And the larger? Swollen up and HOT. She even has a mild fever.

    Wish us luck.
     
  17. challender

    challender Registered+

    Just in case we lose this battle, I took some time today and collected all the data in my journal. It's a lot. But it is everything that we did, and everything we experienced with our pup. I want to do it now, because if we lose her, I won't have the heart for it.

    ===========================

    APRIL 3RD, 2017

    Druscilla went to the vet. The Vet says that her breast tumor is cancer.

    For a year, with no effect, we gave her 1/2 small grain rice once a day.

    When we saw growth, we upped that to a grain of rice, twice a day. This knocked her silly. She was sleepy enough that she wasn’t eating properly. But after a month, the smaller tumor was gone. And the larger? Swollen up and HOT. She even has a mild fever

    We increased the dose because of the “hot” tumor and fever. She got her appetite back -- very hungry.

    APRIL 5TH, 2017

    The vet called, and their machine is still not working. But there is a spot on one lung showing in one of the xrays. But not in the other two. So they are waiting on a tech to check it tomorrow - they hope tomorrow - and confirm. And the vet is of the opinion that if it is a tumor, that there is no point in removing the one on her stomach.

    If that is the case, we will continue as we are doing.

    We left off one dose last night, only giving her two larger doses, with topical also applied about 5 times over the day on her tumor. Because she was really high, and was also a bit freaked by it.

    She started shaking, and we wrapped her in a blanket and sat with her cooing and sweet talking her. It took about 15 minutes to calm her down. And we decided to wait until 5pm today to give her the next large dose, so she could come down enough off the last one to eat a good meal. We fed her roast chicken.

    When off the meds, she looks absolutely fine. She runs and plays and eats. Which is the opposite of what the vet expects of her.
    - - -
    Last note, I think.
    Druscilla is very hungry tonight.

    APRIL 8TH 2017

    The tumor was looser a few days ago. Now it is quite firm. And I have no idea if that is good or bad.

    We are giving her RSO about 2 1/2 times a day. One dose being smallish, so she can eat. And topicals are always 2 or more times a day. We just do it every time we think about it.

    She’s eating. But only if we let the RSO fade a bit.

    APRIL 10TH, 2017

    Druscilla does not like being high all the time. Bedtime is okay, but she gets angry if we make her high all day.

    APRIL 17TH

    Druscilla: Her tumor is smaller on one side, larger on another. And it’s becoming very round. It was originally this two inch by 1 inch weird line with nodules. Then it became a pear. Now it’s a ball.

    Reading online, they say round or oval tumors are usually benign. So maybe this is a good sign. We hope so.

    She is still a fussy eater, but she is eating. Today she did very well. And was very active last night and this morning. If we didn’t know she had a problem, you would have seen no sign of it in her behavior.

    APRIL 22ND, 2017

    We bought more Kush Cream for Druscilla’s tumor. No real change yet in its size. And she was fussy today about eating.

    APRIL 23RD

    Druscilla is now at 3 lines. I really need to weigh it for future reference. (3 lines across witdth of 1/4 inch tablet of vitamin C)

    APRIL 25TH

    Dru is now getting her meds 3 times a day because we think the tumor is still growing. We intend to keep upping it every few days until it STOPS and SHRINKS. (3 lines on the width of a vitamin pill, 1/4 inch)

    -----------------
    APRIL 26TH, 2017

    Druscilla is now taking near 1/2 a gram of oil a day. It’s closer to 1/3rd == we know by the marks. Each gram is 16 marks. And also, we’re slowly switching over to Gorilla Glue rso.

    She still hesitates to eat, but does eat. And she is very angry with us when we give it to her. But has moments of sparkly happiness and interest in the world. So it must be good for her.

    But? The big tumor looks bigger. Hopefully, this new increase will finally start getting it.

    Other note. Small cysts she has had for years on her chest are also smaller by about half. So it is doing something.

    APRIL 28TH

    Druscilla: is still not very into eating. We are hoping it’s just the heavy rso. Though she was excited to go on a walk. I am hoping she’ll eat after.

    And we made a coconut/peanut oil with RSO. We plan to use that instead of the Kush Cream for a while on her tumor. Something must shrink it.

    APRIL 30TH

    We cut a string, knotted one end, and wrapped it around her tumor, marked it, and wrapped around the biggest part of the pear shape in the other direction.

    4 inches wide, by 4 1/4 (one mark) long.

    Measuring it the other way, it looks no bigger at all. Perhaps a bit smaller.

    Also, on the far end, where it was biggest and round, the end looks a bit deflated.

    MAY 1ST, 2017

    I wanted to note that Druscilla’s appetite came back with a vengeance last night. She ate a heck of a lot. Was fussy sleeping that night because of an over-full tummy.

    I hope she eats like that again this evening.

    She is just over 1/3 of a gram a day now, taking it in about two doses every 10 hours. We may up that to every 9 soon.

    MAY 7TH, 2017

    Druscilla’s tumor is showing no real sign of shrinkage. It may be less wide. That is all. But that direction is less exact than the length. Which is the same. Maybe even a hair larger. But I am hoping that was wrong. It was close enough, either way, that it may just be the same.

    She stopped being high about a week back. Maybe a tad earlier. And about the time we upped her dose to 1/2 a gram/divided by 2 or 3 times a day. Which seems … confusing. Lower doses knocked her the heck out. Now? You can’t hardly tell she’s on anything.

    MAY 23RD, 2017

    Dru enjoyed a long walk.

    MAY 26TH

    We have been hesitating measuring her bump. But it seems to be smaller. But only by about a quarter inch. One side is the same, the other is smaller. Basically, both directions are the same.

    I wanted MUCH MUCH MORE. I won’t be posting this at all because it’s a small enough change that it is possible it's a mistake on my part.

    It seems to be differently shaped though.

    She DOES NOT want them anymore. She doesn’t like being high and fights, and nips, and struggles …

    MAY 31ST, 2017

    Yes. I really did have a nightmare about RSO. About my fear, actually, that Druscilla is not getting enough. And I think, today, would be a good day to go back to the shop and purchase

    We have brought back 7 grams of cannabis. It is a shockingly small amount. I remember before things became codified, I got this much for a lot less money.

    However, it is here now. And chopped and put in a jar with coconut oil and some peanut oil to make it softer. And sitting in water in the crockpot set to warm. I will check the temperature at 30 minutes - since it is not to temp yet. And after, every 30-60 minutes, depending on how close our warm setting is to 180f.

    Our plan is to give this to Druscilla as a supplementary to what she already gets her morning dose. All plant material will be in the oil, so we should not have lost a thing.

    I did learn today that Sativas boost hunger more than Indicas. And that might account for the drop in Druscilla’s appetite on the Indica oil. She’d been getting Sativas previously

    JUNE 11TH

    We thought it was possible yesterday, but today we do think that the tumor is growing again.

    So new supplementary stuff: Jatina read that breast cancer can mean too much estrogen, with the suggestion that progesterone cream could help that balance.

    We have also bought DMSO aloe vera cream to mix with her RSO coconut oil for her bump. DMSO helps ferry it right into the body, so we hope this will help attack it.

    And that is where we stand.

    Additional Note: she is eating better, and more active. So perhaps this is a good thing.

    JUNE 12TH

    So. Druscilla looked really good last night. We think that something positive has changed.

    JUNE 13TH

    We started Dru on the DMSO and cannabis.

    Her tumor is bigger, I am pretty sure. But they did say that happens before it dies. And she looks so damn good right now. So strong. Healthy. Her skin is getting its resilience back. It’s not loose and sagging. She fills solid when we pet her.

    JUNE 14TH

    We have begun the DMSO mixed with RSO for Dru’s bump. She is doing so well, otherwise, that I think the growth of the tumor may be a sign that it is dying. They say that when it begins to die, it grows, sometimes doubles, before it goes away.

    Either way, the DMSO with the oil should help.

    (Later in the evening)
    We have changed what we feed Dru. She threw up tonight, and we read up on cannabis and nausea …. A bad, googling word choice, and hard to find what we needed, but we finally discovered that too much cannabis causes low blood sugar. And sugar - carbs - can help with that.

    We remembered that the night before, after fussing with raw hamburger, she was willing to eat some of our casserole, so we made her some. And she ate it.

    It wasn’t enough food … but it did show we might be on the right track.

    We also made her sweetened peanut butter.

    I hope this is the right track.

    JUNE 15TH

    Her tumor has doubled in size in the last week.

    JUNE 21ST

    Dru won’t eat anything unless we put it in her mouth and don’t let her spit it out.

    We are considering increasing the Rso again. Which we hate to do because about 50 percent of us suspects that she’s not eating because she’s too high. But again, I think that’s not why because she seems fine most of the time. Not over-high. So yeah. Increase.

    JUNE 23RD

    In better news, Dru had enough of an appetite to eat about a half cup of chopped chicken on her own, and without any prompting. Silver Haze is so much better.

    Druscilla ate today!!!

    Cannaloupe Kush Trim (OBC) Hybrid
    Possibly:
    Durban Poison Trim

    We think this is the combination in the paste. WE WANT TO CONTINUE THIS. She ATE WITH AN APPETITE!!!!

    JULY 1ST, 2017

    Druscilla surprised us both by eating a chopped up, raw, chicken liver I brought her in a bowl. She nibbled on it over about 15 minutes, but she ate the whole thing. First one half, paused, then the other. We were ecstatic. She hasn’t eaten her favorite food since shortly after we started treating her seriously for cancer.

    Later, she nibbled on some of her stew (oatmeal, tator tots, hamburger, cream of chicken soup) without us having to put it into her mouth first. She licked, nibbled it out of her bowl.

    And even later, she ate one of my home-made, peanut butter, dog cookies. She hasn’t had one of those … since before we started treating her.

    (Note: we switched over to canna suppositories)

    Our suppositories are a bit under 3=1 gram a day. My fault, I added too much cocoa butter. It’s more like 4=1 gram. She’s getting about 6 a day. Every four hours or so. The next batch will be stronger.

    Also, they are hard to do with cocoa butter. They melt faster, which surprised me. I found the best way to deal with them thus far is to freeze them in a container, and bring the container to Dru, find her anus, be sure I know where it is, and push it in fast, before it can start melting and turning into a mush ball.

    I also found out that I need to stay nearby, not just make sure she continues to lay down for 30-50 minutes because occasionally, she can push them back out. It seems to have only happened once - but I am not sure. I just know it happened last night. And I got it back in fast enough. And kept a finger over her rear for about 5 minutes. That seemed to prevent any ejections.

    Dru also thinks that I have gone nuts.

    She doesn’t mind this like she minded the pills. This doesn’t affect her anxiety, make her panic, and shake all over. But it does take two of us, now that we’re on the third day, and Dru realizes we’re going to keep doing this.

    The first day, we got a pass, because she figured it was some freaky thing that we were doing, and she never guessed we’d do it after day 1. But we did, and now she grumbles and tries to wiggle when we insert it. Which makes it VERY hard.

    But, we bought a suppository applicator. That comes today. You lube it up, and put it in, and push the plunger. I hope it’ll make things easier.

    I’m just glad we have a 90 lb dog, not a 10 lb dog. I am not sure how that’d work.

    Note about Druscilla - even with the suppositories, she licks her rear and is getting head highs. It seems even harder than with the oral pills.

    This means when she wants water, she can’t quite remember what is or is not water. We put the bowl before her, touch it, then touch her lips with our wet fingers, then she drinks. Her behavior suggests she is not thirsty until the water is on her lips. I need to remember this if I ever write this up.

    Same for food. Must put it against her mouth before she’ll take it.

    Though, often she fights anyway. I think it’s a fear that she’ll choke on it. She needs mush - or raw burger - in small bits. Anything she must chew does not work. This has been going on for about a month.

    =-===============
    JULY 2ND

    I read all over the web that the oil works. It CURES cancer. Over and over I read about it. Even with dogs.

    There are no specifics. Which is the bug in the oil. No one will tell you exactly what they did. Or what oils they took. They give you vague information. They say you take 60 days to get to a gram a day, and that will cure you.

    Others say suppository med works better. But that’s all they say.

    I also have read now that some people need to work up to 3 grams a day. THREE GRAMS!!! I have read that the tumor often grows before it dies. But no one tells you a time frame, or what is common and normal, and what might not be.

    There are no guides. So I have no idea if we are saving her life, or just … masking the symptoms of her dying.

    She is starting to get thin. I do not think that is good at all. And her tumor? Is so huge now. At least the size of a baseball. And I hate it. So much.

    JULY 3RD

    Dru ate better last night and this morning. We still have to put it to her mouth, but she spit out less, and ate faster. Which did our hearts good.

    JULY 4TH

    Today we decided to wait 12 hours between last night’s suppository and this morning’s one. The reason is because Dru is so high she can’t quite walk. Jatina learned this at 8am when she took her out for a short walk, to make sure she is going poop alright. Dru could barely walk, and wobbled, and stumbled a lot.

    There are a few possibilities for why this is happening since all human cannabis suppository users say there is no head high. Just a warmth. Nothing more.

    1. The first two sets were weaker. I think it was about 6 suppositories = a gram the first set. The second set was closer to 5 per gram. And we were giving her 1 suppository every 4-5 hours. Perhaps that is why it wasn’t hitting her as hard prior. Plus, I suspect she lost at least one or two -- pushed them out -- when we weren’t looking. Even though we keep her laying down for about an hour.

    And now? They are full strength. 3 = 1 gram. And we were still giving it to her ever 4-5 hours.

    2. Perhaps dogs react differently and still get a head high. Or? And I think this is a real possibility: She licks her butt. People don’t generally do that. And it leaks, just a bit, plus we push it through and it melts so fast it does leave residue. So she is getting some orally. That might be the reason.

    People just don’t lick their own butt holes.

    JULY 5TH

    We took Dru for a walk. She did really well.

    The tumor had been cooler, it seems to be warm again. But she ate very well. Plus we changed her food. It is now 1 lb of raw burger mixed with milk-soaked, 1/2 cup Iams dog food. It gets soft, but I still have to minc it with a knife. She seemed to like it, even though we still have to put the food practically in her mouth. But she projectile spit only a few pieces overall.

    Dru has been having loose stools through this entire treatment. But she only had to go outside twice, maybe three times a day.

    Starting yesterday, it got worse. She even had an accident in my car - though granted, it is a 1 hour drive - we went for a walk, that she did very well on. Ad so we have stopped suppositories. You can’t use them if you keep having loose stools.

    JULY 6TH

    DRU THREW UP
    I just wanted to make a note of this. After a day of lots of loose stools, she threw up, and it smelled heavily of marijuana. She seemed better after.
     
  18. challender

    challender Registered+

    We still have Druscilla. She is now on an Indica strain. She looks a bit better, but time will tell.

    HOWEVER. We have been struggling to get her to eat since we started treatment. Even on the early, low dose. And I think it might be due in part to the fact we choose Sativas. Originally it was a hybrid, but we asked what was best for appitite increase and we were told Sativa.

    Now we discovered this:

    High THCV Sativa Strains
    By now you know what THC and CBD is, but you may not be familiar with the less ubiquitous THCV, a related chemical that suppresses appetite. While most strains on the market today tend to test anywhere between 10-20% THC, what’s considered a high THCV content might only hit a high-water mark of 5%. THCV tends to be more abundant in sativa strains, and it’s possible you’ve noticed that sativas tend to provoke hunger less than indica strains. The unique metabolic effects of THCV even have researchers considering its utility in treating obesity and diabetes.

    ---------------------

    I hope switching to the Indica will help her eat. She's still struggling. We wonder, particularly, because both times we took her off the meds for 24 hours, she ate better. She's on just under 50mg two times a day now.
     
  19. Weezard

    Weezard Registered+

    All oil is not equal in potency.
    She might be trying to tell you that she's too high.
    I'm gonna repeat myself here, "they don't have to get way high to get well."

    I don't know Dru's sensitivity, and I don't know your oil's potency or cannabinoid ratios.
    So I can not make a reliable quantity suggestion.
    Best route, is to let her tell you what dosage is acceptable by cutting it back until she eats, yah?

    We keep our pup just below her anorexia level and she's still doing well.
    And we feed her twice per day. Giving her the oil in a dessert treat.
    The "stone" effect peaks in about an hour and a half, then tapers down until the next meal.
    After 12 hours she is sober enough to chow down heartily.

    I hate to be the guy who points this out, but Rotties do not have a long lifespan.
    8 to 10 years.
    The larger the dog, the shorter their time
    Nothing cures aging.
    At some point, you are going to have to let her go.

    My Shepherd mix is 11 now so the oil has bought us another year or two at best.
    I'll take whatever extension I can get.

    jarjarcuJPG.jpg Love this dog.

    Aloha,
    Weeze
     
  20. challender

    challender Registered+

    Again, thank you.

    We're going to try cutting back again on the oil to half. And just start all over.

    And, you're pup looks a lot like our Dru.

    Best wishes.
     

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