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Thread: Medical 'donations'

  1. #1
    seattlegreens is offline Registered+
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    Medical 'donations'

    Recently my caregiver stopped growing.

    I contacted a couple dispensaries in the area to see what 'recommended donations' would be.

    To my horror, I have found that they all charge as much or more than those doing it totally illegally.

    How is it that criminals and street dealers charge for example $10 a gram, making large profits... and then these co-ops claim they are helping the community, only volunteering or taking donations to cover their expenses?

    Dispensaries have an economy of scale, and the law on their side, so they can easily get rich charging half that... and yet they still want to make more money!?

    If grown outdoors, MMJ is basically FREE.
    Grown indoors, it costs less than $2 a gram.

    If a patient needed 3.3 grams a day, she would be giving these charitable, volunteer, non-profit organizations $1000 a month!

    WTF?

  2. #2
    seattlegreens is offline Registered+
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    BTW - this is not an April fools thing.
    I'm not naming anybody, but yes, they are really asking $1000 a month for medication.

    That's more than physical therapy (6 days a month), chiropractic (2-6 days a month) and traditional meds combined!!!

  3. #3
    jackmillions is offline Registered+
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    Increased overhead in comparison to 'street dealers.' I.e. rent, insurance, business licenses, attorney fees, taxes, et cetera.

    Increased risk in comparison to 'street dealers.' Selling MJ in a dark alley at night is arguably less risky than doing it in broad daylight, in a rented retail space, with advertising in local papers and/or internet sites like CL and MMJ related forums.

    *disclaimer, I have never grown MJ

    Growing MJ outdoors is not free. It requires supplies (seeds, fertalizer, equipment, man/woman power, shade cover, support poles/fencing, etc). I've seen some outdoor grow journals that really showed what an impressive, time consuming and expensive proposition it can be to really go for high quality meds in a decent quantity. ow ifyou jus toss seeds in the ground and pray, well that's a different story.

    Growing indoors is not cheap to produce good quality medicine. Lights, fertalizer, power, time, etc all cost bucks.

    I can't really argue too hardly about $x per gram to grow indoors versus outdoors because it's really outside my knowledge base. I admit that. But with just a little bit of supposition I can guess that it is never 'free' and never as cheap as $2 per gram (unless you amortize it out over a very long length of time).

    And to me it's self evident: if growing was so cheap and easy... then you'd be doing it, or everyone would be doing it and there'd be no need for dispenseries. But it's not that cheap... and it sure as heck ain't that easy... 'theoritically' easy sure (I mean it is a weed right lol). But growing plants is part science and part art, and high quality results just don't happen without a lot of effort.

    But I do sympathize with you. Expensive meds suck, be it MMJ or pharmacuticals. Perhaps if we get some good laws passed, then the economy of scale, and reduced risk, will cause the prices to fall like a brick... hopefully.

  4. #4
    seattlegreens is offline Registered+
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    Increased overhead you say. OK, now they pay taxes on their non-profit? They even insure their weed? You think only co-op drug dealers need lawyers, but not regular dealers? Are you serious?

    Cigarettes cost less than $1 per pack to produce.
    If you want proof, go to Korea or Mexico where American made products are imported there, and still sold for less than $2 per pack.

    Weed grows basically the same way.

    Dealers can make $500,000 a year from ONE garage with ONE person doing all the work. This is a fact. There are people in California doing this right now. I'm sure people here too. This is after all their costs (a few grand in lights, dirt and electricity)

    It's hard to argue that their labor is worth $500,000 per year.

    Outdoors - OK, you have to get sticks to support the plants and some other equipment. Sorry I said it's basically free, it does cost a few cents per gram.

    Obviously you'd like to argue it, but if you look at the numbers, you'll see it does not cost more than $2 a gram to grow it indoor or out.
    Yeah, it might take some skill to stick seeds in the ground the 1st time.
    Just like it takes some skill to grow tomatoes.
    After you've done it once though, it's easy and cheap to clone and repeat.

    Watch your mother slowly die from cancer, or your best friend from Chroms, while you are spending $20,000 a year to keep them comfortable before their inevitable death.
    After that, come back on here and defend these humanitarian non-profits that are 'helping' dying patients.

  5. #5
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    Main thing is, to break into the "game", mmj had to follow the model set forth during prohibition. If it costs $300 on the street to buy an oz of good quality bud, then they figure they can charge that and maybe a bit more for their trouble (see jackmillion's first sentence). Large growers aren't just going to start giving their bud away to be good people if that's their main source of income. The dispensaries can't have as large of clientel as street dealers because they can only legally sell to a small percentage of users, which also begs them to seek as high of prices as are "reasonable". All these and more are part of the reason why "meds" are so expensive, it's really uncompassionate but what can you do besides growing it yourself or finding a real "caregiver"?
    Take everything said with a grain of salt, nobody knows everything and everybody knows nothing.

  6. #6
    seattlegreens is offline Registered+
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    I actually had a caregiver until recently. It worked out really well.

    You are absolutely right that criminal drug dealers have no reason to sell their product for cheaper.

    Criminal drug dealers could never sell as much product as legal ones however.
    Criminals cannot advertise. They cannot have a store front. They cannot take in a new crowd simply by seeing ID or paperwork. They cannot, because they fear getting busted, keeping their clientele much much smaller.
    Criminals cannot hire from a large list of employees, only those they trust. Hiring only criminals does not usually result in a large or well run corporation.

    If you look at the amount of legal drugs sold by drug companies producing advil, perkoset, viagra, tobacco, alchohol etc it's very obvious how much larger that industry is than the illegal side.

  7. #7
    jackmillions is offline Registered+
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    Quote Originally Posted by seattlegreens View Post
    Increased overhead you say. OK, now they pay taxes on their non-profit? They even insure their weed?
    You pay WA sales tax on all transaction, regardless whether your a non-profit, or a for-profit.

    All responsible businesses, especially those with a storefront, carry insurance. Slips, trips and falls are the #1 cause of injury in America, and if you're a business and someone has one at your doorstep... then you want liability insurance.

    Business is expensive. Thank lawyers and government (especially democrats) for that.

  8. #8
    seattlegreens is offline Registered+
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    I ran a retail business for some time.
    I need to go back to check what I paid for insurance, but it was next to nothing, and would not add more than a couple cents to each gram over the course of a year.

    Also, about all transactions requiring taxes to be paid.
    This is not true.
    If you have ever worked for or attended a church or non-profit youth group, you know this already.
    I think we need to ask the people that run the dispensaries if they do in fact report the millions that goes through their offices or not, because I'm not sure if they are able to (or willing). If they are able to, then that is great for the state, and for the industry (seriously).

    Damn democrats making weed illegal.
    Too bad Bush isn't here to set things right.

  9. #9
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    Ten dollars a gram has been what I've been paying in Washington State since 2005. And, its all be quality medicine. There have been cheaper stuff too, in a co-op that was not top shelf, but it was still good to go for $7. a gram. Still, I agree that the price is expensive. When I could afford it, I bought an oz+ a month and paid $300. That's a gram a day, and I could have smoked more often, but really didn't need to. I wasn't sharing it either.

    The Black Market price is usually $15 a gram or $20-25 for a dub which should be a gram and a half, or $45-50 an eight.

  10. #10
    justpics Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by seattlegreens View Post
    Recently my caregiver stopped growing.

    I contacted a couple dispensaries in the area to see what 'recommended donations' would be.

    To my horror, I have found that they all charge as much or more than those doing it totally illegally.

    How is it that criminals and street dealers charge for example $10 a gram, making large profits... and then these co-ops claim they are helping the community, only volunteering or taking donations to cover their expenses?

    Dispensaries have an economy of scale, and the law on their side, so they can easily get rich charging half that... and yet they still want to make more money!?

    If grown outdoors, MMJ is basically FREE.
    Grown indoors, it costs less than $2 a gram.

    If a patient needed 3.3 grams a day, she would be giving these charitable, volunteer, non-profit organizations $1000 a month!

    WTF?


    So when is your dispensary opening up that charges $2 a gram for indoor and gives away outdoor for free?


    I've never run a dispensary or been a part of one in WA, but its not hard to do the math. To assume that any dispensary is growing all their meds seems foolish imo, and if they were, the amount of plants they would have to grow to supply all their members would be insane. That risk would end up adding to the cost in the end and you'd still pay more for it.


    But I don't think any dispensary is growing all their own meds. I imagine they get most of what they dispense from members that have extra. So if they are paying 200+ per ounce of good indoor bud, paying employees, renting a space, keeping a lawyer retained since they have more visibility than your average street dealer, paying a tax attorney (anyone doing serious business has a tax attorney, NOT an accountant), paying to furnish their space, paying to advertise...etc...add all those costs to the original price they had to buy it for and you get to the price they must charge the end customer.


    If you think you can run a dispensary that sells meds for 2~ dollars per gram, open one up, you'll have EVERY PATIENT IN WA KNOCKING ON YOUR DOOR...myself included.

  11. #11
    seattlegreens is offline Registered+
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    To those saying these stores are cheaper than the street, maybe it is in some cases for very small quantities.
    In my case, my friends have provided for cheaper than the advertised rates of roughly $10 a gram when buying an ounce or more. I was hoping that a legal supply would equal a better quality and price. This is not the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by justpics View Post
    So when is your dispensary opening up that charges $2 a gram for indoor and gives away outdoor for free?
    I'm not planning to open one.
    I'm also not planning to grow anything.

    I did not ever say it should be given away for free.

    If it did become totally legal, it would be very profitable at a rate far less than $4500 per pound.
    Even at $2 a gram, that's almost $1000 a pound, even then it would be profitable.

    For those places that do not grow their own to sell, and are forced to pay $3000+ per pound, they have to sell it above what they pay, of course.

    Those that grow their own, and still want over $4000 a pound are only taking advantage of the loophole in the law. They would be selling drugs if they were legal, illegal, harmful or helpful. For them, it's best this way for things to be in the gray area. They can charge just as much as street dealers (or some say here they should charge more) without as much risk.
    If it was totally illegal - high risk, high profit
    If it was totally legal - no risk, no profit (tobacco companies would be much more efficient that home growers)
    If it's like California - best option for drug dealers - high profits, less risk

    The government needs to step in and do something to take away the profits of the crime syndicates:
    A) Government or pharmaceutical companies producing for patients
    B) Legalize it completely

    A lot of people have a lot of money to lose if they can't grow/sell at these prices. This money should be taken out of the hands of dealers and put into the hands of the government/community or at least into legitimate business.

    Go the legal route and we'll have cops with more time to protect citizens against violent crimes, less people in jail, more money in the economy and maybe most importantly a more free, more green society.

  12. #12
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    It's not legal to possess cannabis in this state - patient or not. What we have is an affirmative defense - the right to a medical defense - not legality.

    Also, there is no legal supply. If there was, everything would change overnight. But, there isn't. That's the problem.

    Justpics is dead on the money - 1000% accurate.

  13. #13
    killerweed420 is offline Banned
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    Anybody ever bother to price an attorney and what it would cost to fight a case of trafficing in federal court? It ain't cheap and a smart dispensary has got to be all lawyered up.

  14. #14
    Lemonhoko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seattlegreens View Post
    To those saying these stores are cheaper than the street, maybe it is in some cases for very small quantities.
    In my case, my friends have provided for cheaper than the advertised rates of roughly $10 a gram when buying an ounce or more. I was hoping that a legal supply would equal a better quality and price. This is not the case.



    I'm not planning to open one.
    I'm also not planning to grow anything.

    I did not ever say it should be given away for free.

    If it did become totally legal, it would be very profitable at a rate far less than $4500 per pound.
    Even at $2 a gram, that's almost $1000 a pound, even then it would be profitable.

    For those places that do not grow their own to sell, and are forced to pay $3000+ per pound, they have to sell it above what they pay, of course.

    Those that grow their own, and still want over $4000 a pound are only taking advantage of the loophole in the law. They would be selling drugs if they were legal, illegal, harmful or helpful. For them, it's best this way for things to be in the gray area. They can charge just as much as street dealers (or some say here they should charge more) without as much risk.
    If it was totally illegal - high risk, high profit
    If it was totally legal - no risk, no profit (tobacco companies would be much more efficient that home growers)
    If it's like California - best option for drug dealers - high profits, less risk

    The government needs to step in and do something to take away the profits of the crime syndicates:
    A) Government or pharmaceutical companies producing for patients
    B) Legalize it completely

    A lot of people have a lot of money to lose if they can't grow/sell at these prices. This money should be taken out of the hands of dealers and put into the hands of the government/community or at least into legitimate business.

    Go the legal route and we'll have cops with more time to protect citizens against violent crimes, less people in jail, more money in the economy and maybe most importantly a more free, more green society.



    This has got to be the most idiotic statement ive read in a long time.

    Do you REALLY want big pharm and goberment to take over the industry?

    Dude, youre either too stoned or ignorant to really believe our "government" will do us right on these meds?

    MJ has been regulated by quality and street prices. Like it or not, there is a standardization in the process. Just because you dont agree with it does not mean it should be dealt to the hands of the government.
    Sure give them the power to control our MJ meds just like they control AIDs meds...and all the other EXPENSIVE means to keep you alive.

    Geez, now ive heard it all!
    Last edited by Lemonhoko; Apr-03-2010 at 12:00.

  15. #15
    killerweed420 is offline Banned
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    Just legalize it and remove all government controls and it will solve most of the problems. Thats why its important to get the intiative passed. The only problem with the intiative is the problem with every intiative in Washington. Its only good for 2 years and then the legislature gets to make a mess out of it just like they have with every intiative we've passed.

  16. #16
    DaKinD is offline Registered+
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    Thumbs up Call For Unity!

    The one I want to emphasise here is the need to stay calm and react peacefully to what is happening. This is not easy when there is so much stress and fear around with regard to the MMJ present and ‘future’, but we need to do it all the same or we will walk straight into a massive trap that has been set for us. Please let us ORGANIZE TOGETHER! BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!
    Let’s get this straight: They want you to riot in response to the unfolding MMJ catastrophe and we are already seeing people falling for this.

    Why would the authorities want people to riot? Activists will see the answer immediately. They want an excuse to bring in a fully-fledged Police State all over the country and people who riot in their desperation (instigated invariably by agent-provocateurs) are just the excuse they are looking for.

    Be very, very aware of anyone who starts rioting, or encourages others to do so, amid peaceful demonstrations. Who are they and why are they doing this when it is handing all the aces to the system to impose a Police State? They are either stupid or agents of that State.


    The U.S. Army War College has made the same warnings in a document called Known Unknowns: Unconventional ‘Strategic Shocks’ in Defense Strategy Development.
    It said the military must be prepared for a ‘violent, strategic dislocation inside the United States’, in the light of ‘unforeseen economic collapse’. Unforeseen?? You must be joking. The document talks of ‘purposeful domestic resistance’, ‘pervasive public health emergencies’ or ‘loss of functioning political and legal order’. It goes on:
    ‘Widespread civil violence … would force the defense establishment to reorient priorities in extremis to defend basic domestic order and human security. An American government and defense establishment lulled into complacency by a long-secure domestic order would be forced to rapidly divest some or most external security commitments in order to address rapidly expanding human insecurity at home.
    Under the most extreme circumstances, this might include use of military force against hostile groups inside the United States.’

    ONE LOVE !
    Last edited by DaKinD; Apr-03-2010 at 16:46.

  17. #17
    seattlegreens is offline Registered+
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    -Big Pharm helps people with diabetes/high bloodpressure/chronic pain, etc for pennies compared to weed costs.
    -Big Pharm produces shots for children ridding our society of diseases that have wiped out whole populations in the past. These shots are nearly free.
    -Big Pharm / Government gave my elderly dying relative oxycodone(spelling?) for nearly free compared to weed.
    -Big government / Big corporations allow me to drink beer for less than a buck each.
    -Big government charges a shzt load of taxes on smokes and they are still less than $1 a gram.

    If freedom is street criminals regulating 'by quality and street prices' then I do not want freedom. I don't want the freedom to be a criminal.

    If you want to say it's communist to allow all drugs to be legal and regulated by the government, then I saw take away my freedom!

  18. #18
    redtails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seattlegreens View Post
    -Big government charges a shzt load of taxes on smokes and they are still less than $1 a gram.
    The quality suffers there, just like with weed that you can buy for that pice...
    Take everything said with a grain of salt, nobody knows everything and everybody knows nothing.

  19. #19
    seattlegreens is offline Registered+
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    Quote Originally Posted by redtails View Post
    The quality suffers there, just like with weed that you can buy for that pice...
    Dude, if the big companies produce dirt weed, and sell them in 20 packs for $10 I will be a very happy person.
    This will drive down the cost for high quality meds, as now I have another option.
    It'd be hard to justify $250 an ounce if tobacco companies are producing dirt weed for $10.

    This is more similar to alcohol prohibition.
    When the drug beer (dirt weed) was illegal for example, it was very expensive and you could never tell if the quality would be there.
    Now, beer is regulated and I have literally hundreds of options at a dirt cheap rate. Low and high quality.
    With hard alcohol (premium meds) it was often terrible quality making people go blind. Now, products range between $5 and $500 for a legal, safe bottle.

    Why do you believe legalization would cause marijuana to be different than alcohol?

  20. #20
    jamessr is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by seattlegreens View Post
    Dude, if the big companies produce dirt weed, and sell them in 20 packs for $10 I will be a very happy person.
    This will drive down the cost for high quality meds, as now I have another option.
    It'd be hard to justify $250 an ounce if tobacco companies are producing dirt weed for $10.

    This is more similar to alcohol prohibition.
    When the drug beer (dirt weed) was illegal for example, it was very expensive and you could never tell if the quality would be there.
    Now, beer is regulated and I have literally hundreds of options at a dirt cheap rate. Low and high quality.
    With hard alcohol (premium meds) it was often terrible quality making people go blind. Now, products range between $5 and $500 for a legal, safe bottle.

    Why do you believe legalization would cause marijuana to be different than alcohol?
    1) GREED 2) PHARMACOPOEIA 3) UNODC INTERNATIONAL TREATY TOPS THE LIST....

  21. #21
    justpics Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by seattlegreens View Post
    -Big Pharm helps people with diabetes/high bloodpressure/chronic pain, etc for pennies compared to weed costs.
    -Big Pharm produces shots for children ridding our society of diseases that have wiped out whole populations in the past. These shots are nearly free.
    -Big Pharm / Government gave my elderly dying relative oxycodone(spelling?) for nearly free compared to weed.
    -Big government / Big corporations allow me to drink beer for less than a buck each.
    -Big government charges a shzt load of taxes on smokes and they are still less than $1 a gram.

    If freedom is street criminals regulating 'by quality and street prices' then I do not want freedom. I don't want the freedom to be a criminal.

    If you want to say it's communist to allow all drugs to be legal and regulated by the government, then I saw take away my freedom!


    Wow you are so fucking naive.


    "big pharma" charges MORE THAN STREET PRICES for MARINOL, a drug which contains ONE of THOUSANDS of cannabinoids contained in cannabis.


    If you think you can get your THC cheaper from a drug company, then I suggest you pay the 600-1500 dollar per bottle of Marinol, which will add up to less cannabinoids than is contained in a single ounce of medical marijuana, it will also only have ONE cannabinoid instead of the THOUSANDS the cannabis has.


    If you WANT to PAY BIG PHARMA, GO AHEAD.


    Otherwise, STFU, you don't know wtf you are talking about.


    If you think you can provide people medicine for cheaper than is the current status quo, and still "get rich"...then FUCKING DO IT....stop bitching that other people aren't following your bullshit made up logic for running a dispensary.


    Oh, and the government grows cannabis too, guess what? ITS TOTAL FUCKING GARBAGE...they grow it at the university of Mississippi, and its PURE CRAP.

  22. #22
    jackmillions is offline Registered+
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    Quote Originally Posted by seattlegreens View Post
    -Big Pharm helps people with diabetes/high bloodpressure/chronic pain, etc for pennies compared to weed costs.
    -Big Pharm produces shots for children ridding our society of diseases that have wiped out whole populations in the past. These shots are nearly free.
    -Big Pharm / Government gave my elderly dying relative oxycodone(spelling?) for nearly free compared to weed.
    -Big government / Big corporations allow me to drink beer for less than a buck each.
    -Big government charges a shzt load of taxes on smokes and they are still less than $1 a gram.

    If freedom is street criminals regulating 'by quality and street prices' then I do not want freedom. I don't want the freedom to be a criminal.

    If you want to say it's communist to allow all drugs to be legal and regulated by the government, then I saw take away my freedom!
    That is hilarious, and pathetic, on so many levels.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by justpics View Post
    Wow you are so fucking naive.


    "big pharma" charges MORE THAN STREET PRICES for MARINOL, a drug which contains ONE of THOUSANDS of cannabinoids contained in cannabis.


    If you think you can get your THC cheaper from a drug company, then I suggest you pay the 600-1500 dollar per bottle of Marinol, which will add up to less cannabinoids than is contained in a single ounce of medical marijuana, it will also only have ONE cannabinoid instead of the THOUSANDS the cannabis has.


    If you WANT to PAY BIG PHARMA, GO AHEAD.


    Otherwise, STFU, you don't know wtf you are talking about.


    If you think you can provide people medicine for cheaper than is the current status quo, and still "get rich"...then FUCKING DO IT....stop bitching that other people aren't following your bullshit made up logic for running a dispensary.


    Oh, and the government grows cannabis too, guess what? ITS TOTAL FUCKING GARBAGE...they grow it at the university of Mississippi, and its PURE CRAP.
    I tried Marinol back in 1970 I believe it was. It was a red cap and came from a reliable source. But, I really didn't care for the buzz. More of a brain numbing and weird body thing. I've always and will prefer the bud over any mad made concoction. But that doesn't mean they aren't needed. Nealy all the best medicines are synthetic clones of real plants.

  24. #24
    justpics Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by gypski View Post
    I tried Marinol back in 1970 I believe it was. It was a red cap and came from a reliable source. But, I really didn't care for the buzz. More of a brain numbing and weird body thing. I've always and will prefer the bud over any mad made concoction. But that doesn't mean they aren't needed. Nealy all the best medicines are synthetic clones of real plants.
    The problem with marinol, is that you get 1 cannabinoid, all by itself, VERY LITTLE of it, and its EXTREMELY expensive. The starting dose is 2.5 milligrams per pill. The 10 mg per pill dosage costs upwards of $1,000 per bottle, and you need 10 pills to equal the THC in half a gram of bud (that's right it takes 40 of the 2.5mg pills to equal a half gram). Its the most expensive way on the planet to get THC.
    Last edited by justpics; Apr-04-2010 at 09:58.

  25. #25
    killerweed420 is offline Banned
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    Do people really want big pharma or tobacco companies involved in manufacturing MMJ?
    Is it not pretty obvious what would happen to the quality of the product?
    Price, MIGHT go down but what kind of poison would you be buying. Do you think they care what kind of fertilizers and pesticides they would be using.
    As long as a private person retains the right to grow there own I don't care, but do you really think that would happen. We still have alcohol prohibition in this country. While you are allowed to brew small amounts of beer and wine, it is still illegal to distill hard liquor. And thats what would happen if we allow government control.

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